Credulous at best...

[Silence Legion]

Tool has completely changed my perspective on life, and their song, Vicarious, is the reason why I love Tool (either that or the fact that I heard the 10,000 Days album for the very first time on 3 hits of the best acid the east coast has ever seen). Vicarious is a song that screams a message that I have believed in even before I had ever heard of Tool. The song is about how we, the human race, love to see each other suffer. Just as the Romans forced gladiators to kill each other, we feed off of the tragedy we see every day on the news.

Vicarious starts out by describing the speaker's beliefs and habits ("Tragedy thrills me, whatever flavor it happens to be, like... Cus I need to watch things die from a distance. Vicariously I live while the whole world dies"). The speaker, like everyone else on earth, watches intently as he hears stories of death and tragedy.

Keenan then goes to say, "Dont look at me like i am a monster, frown out your one face, but with the other stare like a junkie into the TV." With this verse, Keenan is calling out all the people who claim that TV is too violent and corrupts our minds. He is saying that it doesn't matter what violence you see in this world, because we live for it and we love it. Thats why all you hear on the news are stories about how people die in car accidents, how fathers are killed by their own sons, and how the human race continues to kill eachother every second of every day.

"Why cant we just admit it?" as Keenan says, "Credulous at best, your desire to belive in angels and the hearts of men." Vicarious asks the world, "Why do you believe that human beings are naturally good people? We do nothing but kill eachother for stupid and selfish reasons. 'The universe is hostel, so impersonal. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been.'"

[Inner_Eulogy]

Tool has completely changed my perspective on life, and their song, Vicarious, is the reason why I love Tool (either that or the fact that I heard the 10,000 Days album for the very first time on 3 hits of the best acid the east coast has ever seen). Vicarious is a song that screams a message that I have believed in even before I had ever heard of Tool. The song is about how we, the human race, love to see each other suffer. Just as the Romans forced gladiators to kill each other, we feed off of the tragedy we see every day on the news.

Vicarious starts out by describing the speaker's beliefs and habits ("Tragedy thrills me, whatever flavor it happens to be, like... Cus I need to watch things die from a distance. Vicariously I live while the whole world dies"). The speaker, like everyone else on earth, watches intently as he hears stories of death and tragedy.

Keenan then goes to say, "Dont look at me like i am a monster, frown out your one face, but with the other stare like a junkie into the TV." With this verse, Keenan is calling out all the people who claim that TV is too violent and corrupts our minds. He is saying that it doesn't matter what violence you see in this world, because we live for it and we love it. Thats why all you hear on the news are stories about how people die in car accidents, how fathers are killed by their own sons, and how the human race continues to kill eachother every second of every day.

"Why cant we just admit it?" as Keenan says, "Credulous at best, your desire to belive in angels and the hearts of men." Vicarious asks the world, "Why do you believe that human beings are naturally good people? We do nothing but kill eachother for stupid and selfish reasons. 'The universe is hostel, so impersonal. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been.'"

We all knew this the day the song was leaked years ago, but thanks for the recap

[meriter]

Nice troll session there. Hope you feel better.

[Silence Legion]

We all knew this the day the song was leaked years ago, but thanks for the recap

so no-one is allowed to discuss this song just because you know what it means? sorry, i just assumed that since there is a whole forum devoted to this fucking song that i was free to post my view on it. true, its not the most complicated song Tool ever wrote, but dont you have better things to do than criticize people for utilizing this website's primary function?

[Inner_Eulogy]

so no-one is allowed to discuss this song just because you know what it means? sorry, i just assumed that since there is a whole forum devoted to this fucking song that i was free to post my view on it. true, its not the most complicated song Tool ever wrote, but dont you have better things to do than criticize people for utilizing this website's primary function?

Nah.

And for the record, you're the only person on here that didn't know this.

Also, whether you used the "website's primary function" (LMAO) or not doesn't mean I'm wrong for sharing my opinion just the same. Either way, I was being sarcastic. Lighten up.

[0.618]

"we love tragedy".

How thoughtful.

I think there is more to it. See benchedpatience's thread for instance.

[slamminsalmon]

"Credulous at best Your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men."

this line really grabs my attention. it seems to go very well with the lyrics from "right in two"

"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here."

besides the two obvious heavenly references, maynard never stops singing about our potential. as fan he may not care for us, but as humans he has an incomprehensible love for us.

tho slightly obvious, the op is grounds for new conversation. people like inner will always slow the process of free thought. please dont let him(or the many like him) stop you from posting/saying/thinking anything.

inner wtf are you doing here? really?

[0.618]

What did alex grey say about vicarious on the dvd documentary? I lost my dvd and cant quite remember. I thought it was very well said about vicarious.

[0.618]

Oh right found it on youtube.


He is saying that it doesn't matter what violence you see in this world, because we live for it and we love it.

After seeing the alex grey interview again i played with a thought about "living vicariously".

The word vicarious means to experience something by second hand. So in the world we live in we have come so far that some sad and disturbing events like death and tragedies are filtered and presented through second hands (let it be tv, music album, book) that we almost feel like we are not part of it.

So the way we think and act are far off from reality. We like to forget we are all dying and we have created a lot of these second hand objects in through we live our false sense of reality.

"vicariously i live while the whole world dies(including me)"

[Ether]

Another possibility - although out there and unlikely, but could explain the sense of separation between the 'you' and 'i' of the song; 'better you than i' at the end being pertinent - is that it's a criticism of the nature of god and/or angels, and their passive comfortable stance up in heaven, or the higher dimension, looking on at the world - much as we look at the TV. This would also fit nicely with 'Right in Two.'
It would also make that last line quite literal - better us than the angels and beings of a higher plain.

I know that the way it seems is the most likely explanation, but i feel that this is kind of a better one to consider on top of your current outlook of the song, for personal appreciation. If I was correct it could be the angry lashing out of a traumatised and upset Maynard (due to his mother, obviously) or possibly just a tone setter for something to be embellished upon later; perhaps something like the nature of our will and the help of God and Angels. What is cause for divine intervention and how do these things qualify? Where to start on questioning the nature of our cross-dimensional interactions, our conflict or our meshing of interests?
I tell you what, Maynard should have a good think about that nonetheless!

[0.618]

Another possibility - although out there and unlikely, but could explain the sense of separation between the 'you' and 'i' of the song; 'better you than i' at the end being pertinent - is that it's a criticism of the nature of god and/or angels, and their passive comfortable stance up in heaven, or the higher dimension, looking on at the world - much as we look at the TV. This would also fit nicely with 'Right in Two.'
It would also make that last line quite literal - better us than the angels and beings of a higher plain.

I know that the way it seems is the most likely explanation, but i feel that this is kind of a better one to consider on top of your current outlook of the song, for personal appreciation. If I was correct it could be the angry lashing out of a traumatised and upset Maynard (due to his mother, obviously) or possibly just a tone setter for something to be embellished upon later; perhaps something like the nature of our will and the help of God and Angels. What is cause for divine intervention and how do these things qualify? Where to start on questioning the nature of our cross-dimensional interactions, our conflict or our meshing of interests?
I tell you what, Maynard should have a good think about that nonetheless!

I like your idea.

I was seeking for positive idea thorough 10 000 days, but after reading some earlier threads/interviews it made a lot more sense. One of the key concepts were an interview where MJK told that they have done their preaching and the ones who are potential for positive change already got what they need. Its time to move on.

This time there is no guidance and the approach is different. Like taking this song under evaluation: if you understand the fragility and limitation of life you might appreciate life a bit more causing actions that are indeed positive. Also it reliefs a lot of guilt understanding that the place where we live in is nowhere near paradise.

He does not state that we should not try to make one, though it might seem that we are not doing a good job on the first glance?

Somehow frustration shouts behind the lyrics of this song. I believe if you seek negativity - you get negativity. And maybe you are right, this song might be a tune setter.

[slamminsalmon]

i think just stopping at vicariously watching death and destruction is only scratching the surface.

we vicariously live through celebrities, stars, or even our close friends. instead of experiencing something for ourselves. we let others do it, we listen to their story and we make our own judgment.

how do you know if you like white water rafting if you never tried? many im sure, have gone from wut others have said and made the decision not to do it. be it from fear, anxiety, financial reasons, or location. people will validate their choice not to do so, because they have vicariously experienced the rapids through friends' tales, or watching tv and movies.

from there, to the extreme, you have people praising rafting, and condemning rafting, who havent experienced it ever.

sorry bout the white water rafting example but it works.

[0.618]

i think just stopping at vicariously watching death and destruction is only scratching the surface.

we vicariously live through celebrities, stars, or even our close friends. instead of experiencing something for ourselves. we let others do it, we listen to their story and we make our own judgment.

how do you know if you like white water rafting if you never tried? many im sure, have gone from wut others have said and made the decision not to do it. be it from fear, anxiety, financial reasons, or location. people will validate their choice not to do so, because they have vicariously experienced the rapids through friends' tales, or watching tv and movies.

from there, to the extreme, you have people praising rafting, and condemning rafting, who havent experienced it ever.

sorry bout the white water rafting example but it works.

sure you can broaden from death and tragedy to different things, but i thought in this context these were the main themes.

One interesting question came to mind: do you think living vicariously is necessarily a bad thing?

[Inner_Eulogy]

"Credulous at best Your desire to believe in Angels in the hearts of men."

this line really grabs my attention. it seems to go very well with the lyrics from "right in two"

"Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here."

besides the two obvious heavenly references, maynard never stops singing about our potential. as fan he may not care for us, but as humans he has an incomprehensible love for us.

tho slightly obvious, the op is grounds for new conversation. people like inner will always slow the process of free thought. please dont let him(or the many like him) stop you from posting/saying/thinking anything.

inner wtf are you doing here? really?

Either you didn't read his post or you're too stupid to retain information because there was no new idea. He stated the obvious and something that's been said again and agains for years now. Besides, as I stated, I was only giving him a hard time. Why don't you go fuckin cry about it. People like you solve nothing in the world, all talk and no action. I get shit done.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Another possibility - although out there and unlikely, but could explain the sense of separation between the 'you' and 'i' of the song; 'better you than i' at the end being pertinent - is that it's a criticism of the nature of god and/or angels, and their passive comfortable stance up in heaven, or the higher dimension, looking on at the world - much as we look at the TV. This would also fit nicely with 'Right in Two.'
It would also make that last line quite literal - better us than the angels and beings of a higher plain.

I know that the way it seems is the most likely explanation, but i feel that this is kind of a better one to consider on top of your current outlook of the song, for personal appreciation. If I was correct it could be the angry lashing out of a traumatised and upset Maynard (due to his mother, obviously) or possibly just a tone setter for something to be embellished upon later; perhaps something like the nature of our will and the help of God and Angels. What is cause for divine intervention and how do these things qualify? Where to start on questioning the nature of our cross-dimensional interactions, our conflict or our meshing of interests?
I tell you what, Maynard should have a good think about that nonetheless!

It's not a bad thought but it sounds pretty simple and literal to me. "..as the whole world dies, much better you than I". Just another nudge to the fact of self preservation, he's saying much better you die than me. I thought that was pretty self explanatory.

[Inner_Eulogy]

This time there is no guidance and the approach is different. Like taking this song under evaluation: if you understand the fragility and limitation of life you might appreciate life a bit more causing actions that are indeed positive. Also it reliefs a lot of guilt understanding that the place where we live in is nowhere near paradise.

I like how you put this though because it does connect to the theme of Right In Two. We were basically given the free will to live in "this garden of eden" but we chose to fight over everything out of greed. The angels look down on us and shake their heads is dismay and disappointment, silly monkeys.

[Inner_Eulogy]

i think just stopping at vicariously watching death and destruction is only scratching the surface.

we vicariously live through celebrities, stars, or even our close friends. instead of experiencing something for ourselves. we let others do it, we listen to their story and we make our own judgment.

how do you know if you like white water rafting if you never tried? many im sure, have gone from wut others have said and made the decision not to do it. be it from fear, anxiety, financial reasons, or location. people will validate their choice not to do so, because they have vicariously experienced the rapids through friends' tales, or watching tv and movies.

from there, to the extreme, you have people praising rafting, and condemning rafting, who havent experienced it ever.

sorry bout the white water rafting example but it works.

I totally want to go white water rafting

[Inner_Eulogy]

One interesting question came to mind: do you think living vicariously is necessarily a bad thing?

Yes and no and it depends on the situation. Throughout all human history, being vicarious is human nature and is in part, a part of using our imagination. However, if taken to an extreme, then you become someone who does nothing for yourself or others.

[Ether]

It's not a bad thought but it sounds pretty simple and literal to me. "..as the whole world dies, much better you than I". Just another nudge to the fact of self preservation, he's saying much better you die than me. I thought that was pretty self explanatory.

Yes, it is. I know that, that's why i said it's unlikely, BUT I think it's a great second meaning, as the lyrics have been worded with only enough you's and i's to imply what your saying, but still also could embrace my idea as well. Like a comparison, saying that at the end of the day, who's to say God and Angels aren't the same "we should just admit it" (bit of a paraphrase).

It's just something to consider when you're listening to the song. It may not be the RIGHT initial answer, but the initial one is easy. This is another one to add a bit more depth.

That's what people do with art, dude.

[Ether]

Due to the vast numbers of us in the world, a lot of the time vicarious living is the only option. There's not enough space or money for all of us to go white water rafting.

When it comes to danger, tragedy and suffering:

Safety in numbers = vicarious in numbers.

[withSpirit]

so no-one is allowed to discuss this song just because you know what it means? sorry, i just assumed that since there is a whole forum devoted to this fucking song that i was free to post my view on it. true, its not the most complicated song Tool ever wrote, but dont you have better things to do than criticize people for utilizing this website's primary function?

There's nothing in your post to discuss. All you did was tell us what the generally accepted interpretation of the song is, which we all already knew.

[0.618]

There's nothing in your post to discuss. All you did was tell us what the generally accepted interpretation of the song is, which we all already knew.

i think it sparked a good discussion, dont you think?

[Inner_Eulogy]

i think it sparked a good discussion, dont you think?

Not really, not really at all.

In fact, all it did was beat a horse that's been dead for years. May as well take on the hobby of grave robbing while he's at it.

[0.618]

Not really, not really at all.

In fact, all it did was beat a horse that's been dead for years. May as well take on the hobby of grave robbing while he's at it.

oh well i got some new thoughts

[Silence Legion]

There's nothing in your post to discuss. All you did was tell us what the generally accepted interpretation of the song is, which we all already knew.

then why dont you go find a forum with a suitable topic for discussion instead of harassing me for my newfound love for an old song? im not going to stop sharing my views on a song just because someone else might already know what it means.

[withSpirit]

then why dont you go find a forum with a suitable topic for discussion instead of harassing me for my newfound love for an old song? im not going to stop sharing my views on a song just because someone else might already know what it means.

No no...you don't get it. You didn't actually share any views of any kind. You just summarized the lyrics and said you like the song. That is the reason that you got so many responses along the lines of "um....ok?" There was no point to what you said, which is why, accordingly, this is a pointless thread.