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0ctopod
04-28-2009, 10:15 PM
This is the latest version of an essay I wrote two years ago on (-) Ions. It has a lot of new info, so if you've read it before please give it another whirl. It's on a new site and no longer on my old blog.

http://hubpages.com/hub/negativeions

Comments appreciated.

Inner_Eulogy
04-29-2009, 10:12 AM
This is the latest version of an essay I wrote two years ago on (-) Ions. It has a lot of new info, so if you've read it before please give it another whirl. It's on a new site and no longer on my old blog.

http://hubpages.com/hub/negativeions

Comments appreciated.

An excellent read. I do believe I've read it before but I think you're intuitiveness and understanding of all the symbolism, whether intended by the band or not, is superb.

Do you have a general link you can post with the other interpretations you've done?

0ctopod
04-29-2009, 05:15 PM
Thank-you, Inner. Nice to read you again, btw.

I actually took my other essays down after finding the Jacob/Esau parallel. It's relevance is too far reaching, so they ended up being outdated. I'm going to re-write them and post them again on the site above, along with some other things I've picked up in the last couple years.

Alex in Chains
04-29-2009, 05:18 PM
This is the latest version

How many more versions before you catch this?

"The thing I always thought was so cool about the early albums of the Portland band Floater was their use of segues between the main songs of their early albums."

Just breaking your balls. I will continue reading.

0ctopod
04-29-2009, 06:26 PM
Ha ha, thanks man.

There's probably more than just that flub. I'm too close to that thing to see it objectively.

Alex in Chains
04-29-2009, 06:41 PM
You make a lot of interesting observations in that essay.

Inner_Eulogy
04-29-2009, 07:15 PM
Thank-you, Inner. Nice to read you again, btw.

I actually took my other essays down after finding the Jacob/Esau parallel. It's relevance is too far reaching, so they ended up being outdated. I'm going to re-write them and post them again on the site above, along with some other things I've picked up in the last couple years.

Aw shit man, those other essays even still were great. It's good to see you dropping a post here as well, it's been a long time since I've seen you around. Hopefully you post those soon, or at least add the old versions back until you complete the re-writes. I'd like to share them with some one and now their gone.

0ctopod
04-30-2009, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the kind words. The new versions will be up soon. I'll post links on the album forums for them as they are posted.

Yast3r
04-30-2009, 05:32 PM
Interesting read Octopod. Those were entirely new thoughts to me, I hadn't read anything similar to that... very interesting indeed. Cant wait to see what you post next.

0ctopod
05-01-2009, 07:09 AM
Thank-you Yast3r. I hope it's useful.

Um... what is that a picture of in your avatar? It's giving me the Lynch/Cronenberg feeling.

Inner_Eulogy
05-01-2009, 08:10 AM
Thanks for the kind words. The new versions will be up soon. I'll post links on the album forums for them as they are posted.

Do you still have the older one's you had before? I have someone coming to my house this weekend that I was hoping to share those with. They're new to Tool and I thought that your perceptions and theories on it are very insightful to learning the possible depth of Tool's work.

Rolo
05-03-2009, 01:06 PM
Welcome back, 0ctopod.

Your analyses on Tool are magnificent, as always. Good read.

I hope your reappearance on TDN is a harbinger for new Tool material.

0ctopod
05-04-2009, 05:23 PM
Rolo, thanks. I hope they get around to the Pot video some time.

Inner, I no longer want the old ones out there. Sorry man.

0.618
05-05-2009, 04:28 AM
keep them coming yo

Inner_Eulogy
05-05-2009, 11:07 AM
Inner, I no longer want the old ones out there. Sorry man.

Well damn dude, hurry up with your revisions then..lol

Rolo
05-05-2009, 01:49 PM
Maybe he could PM them to you?

Inner_Eulogy
05-06-2009, 05:14 AM
Maybe he could PM them to you?

Eh, he said he still has to revise them and doesn't want the old ones out anymore so I'll just have to wait and twiddle my thumbs..lol

Rolo
05-07-2009, 04:30 PM
I guess you do...

Rolo
05-07-2009, 05:06 PM
:'(

New material is needed!

Inner_Eulogy
05-08-2009, 09:30 AM
:'(

New material is needed!

Agreed

0ctopod
05-09-2009, 09:25 AM
Thank-you for the kind words, Rivek.


the waning days of the lateralus era were the last days of global high-quality tool-related discussion here.

I think that album did some interesting things to the fanbase. It was a bit of a soft answer to an audience that wanted badly to get pummeled. I was around off and on back then, so I know what you're talking about. There was a lot of bitching about how the album turned out, but there was also a different openness to a lot of the ideas that Tool were introducing. Lateralus opened a lot of minds.

Consequently, a lot of those people matured and left this place because there has always been a propensity for nasty flaming here. People with interesting ideas have always been routinely hammered for not knowing everything in the FAQ, and I definitely experienced that. I had to develop my own ideas about the band away from here, sometimes conversing with the few people I actually know who are fans of the band, but usually on my own.

Tool are an old band, but I think discussion of their art could flourish again if the forum takes a turn towards being a bit more forgiving with new folks/ideas. The crowd that arrived with 10K Days was definitely a bit young and inexperienced, but people have to start somewhere. There will be more people coming out of the woodwork with the new tour, and also when the Pot video eventually gets released. There is always much to be gained from perspectives that haven't been beaten down.

0ctopod
05-10-2009, 12:26 AM
There were certainly plenty of people who deserved to get banned in those days, but I don't remember the majority of them being thoughtful contributors.

0ctopod
05-10-2009, 11:46 AM
I must admit, I've never been to those forums. So perhaps therein lies my disconnect.

Even still, there must be literally thousands of posters who joined to share some thoughts on their own interpretations, and only posted a few times after getting slammed for not having the FAQ memorized as a religious text. That's a lot of wasted opportunity and potential for quality discussion. It strikes me as a very similar atmosphere to that provided by religious fanatics who fight over the interpretation of scripture.

Inner_Eulogy
05-11-2009, 10:44 AM
Not really. 90% of them got banned for being immature, actually.

Everyone except for you, actually.

Inner_Eulogy
05-11-2009, 11:23 AM
lol, apparently you don't have the slightest idea what is being discussed here.

Run along and play with the rest of your thread derailing brigade.

Apparently you don't. Wow, I really thought you were smarter than that. You wouldn't the obvious unless it was a dick in your mouth, which I'm sure is a metaphor you can more easily relate to.

The comment was that the immature and childish ones of this forum had mostly been banned already from the past. I chimed in with the fact that you are one of the remaining survivors yet to have been abolished.

Stupid is as stupid does I suppose.

Inner_Eulogy
05-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Are you capable of actually discussing anything without using 6th grade rants? My guess would be no.

LOL, wow, excellent retort, excellent. Employing the "whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you" tactics I see. I suppose my 6th grade rants then surely make your simplistic Kindergarten whining pretty much pointless then doesn't it?

No, the comment was that 90% of the posters from the Lateralus album cycle ended up getting banned by being immature. So, no, you didn't have any clue what you were talking about.

Yeah...everyone but YOU....damn, you really are that dense.

Inner_Eulogy
05-11-2009, 01:09 PM
I think I just strained my eye muscles by rolling my eyes too hard.



Okay, let me try this once again.

So back in the Lateralus album cycle there were a bunch of posters.

Then they got tired of this place and deliberately fucked with dan by being immature on purpose.

He banned them.

I never did any of these things.

And you really don't know what you're talking about.

Now that it's all been laid out here, your only excuse for not getting it would be willful ignorance or just plain mental defect.

Actually, you're the one that still doesn't get it. You should be banned, you should have been banned or you should never have been allowed to sign up to begin with. You're immature and a complete egotistical hypocrite.

Inner_Eulogy
05-11-2009, 06:51 PM
At least I'm on point.

Yast3r
05-12-2009, 05:54 AM
Holy shit, you guys have been bickering back and forth in about 5 threads now. You both are starting to sound like thirteen year old girls in a middle-school feud. Just drop the fucking argument and move on with your lives.

Inner_Eulogy
05-12-2009, 07:04 AM
Holy shit, you guys have been bickering back and forth in about 5 threads now. You both are starting to sound like thirteen year old girls in a middle-school feud. Just drop the fucking argument and move on with your lives.

Consider it done....unfortunately he'll have nowhere to go considering he doesn't have one.

0.618
05-12-2009, 07:29 AM
This is the latest version of an essay I wrote two years ago on (-) Ions. It has a lot of new info, so if you've read it before please give it another whirl. It's on a new site and no longer on my old blog.

http://hubpages.com/hub/negativeions

Comments appreciated.

After reading the text again I was bothered with one thing. I see all the albums as separate work and kind of connecting the different works is a bit questionable. There are some reoccurring elements, like sun (sweat, reflection, jambi), but I like to see the meaning of it separate and limit the context to just one song/album.

To me, the albums makes a timeline of thoughts and between the albums there have been a lot of changes. Like for instance, i dont see much of Jungian things in other than Aenima and Parabola video. Or maybe it is just that I dont want to see, well :)

I think the band has evolved by time and new music and ideas are not known before hand. Of course, one can link the stuff on the path that lead to the current situation. I like the ideas presented and specially the 11, H and Jacobs ladder. It might be that the bothering feeling just came because i havent really gave much thought to whole aenima and past albums.

Rolo
05-12-2009, 01:08 PM
Holy shit, you guys have been bickering back and forth in about 5 threads now. You both are starting to sound like thirteen year old girls in a middle-school feud. Just drop the fucking argument and move on with your lives.

Although it's amusing to read, i agree with you Yast3r.

Inner_Eulogy
05-12-2009, 01:27 PM
Wasn't I whom started the shit talking to begin with guys.

0ctopod
05-12-2009, 06:53 PM
Nice. Finally some discussion:

There are some reoccurring elements, like sun (sweat, reflection, jambi), but I like to see the meaning of it separate and limit the context to just one song/album.

I'm sure there are many who feel the same. I agree completely that individual songs/albums/videos tackle separate topics. And my essay is not meant to challenge the individual interpretations thereof. I am simply identifying a particular set of threads, among many, that appear to unify their text as a whole.

Take Stinkfist, for instance. The FAQ rightly illustrates how the song can simply be about fisting, but also desensitization from another view. So if there are multiple interpretations of each song, the possibility exists for a single thread to run throughout all their songs. That's why my essay makes no claim on being "correct". I'm not interested in dismissing what others interpret. Just illuminating what I see.

i dont see much of Jungian things in other than Aenima and Parabola video. Or maybe it is just that I dont want to see, well :)

The inlay for the Opiate CD is a smorgasbord of ideas (including two rusty keys), and included near the Adam pic is a picture of 4 couples at a ballroom dance. Except one of the women is covered in the collage. So she's the "hidden woman". This, to me, is the first instance of the anima in their catalog. Next is the song Cold And Ugly, then the naked woman in the Undertow inlay, then so on and so forth. To me, she is involved in each of their major releases.

I think the band has evolved by time and new music and ideas are not known before hand.

I definitely agree with this point, and in no way did I mean to infer that they had the whole thing figured out in 1992. I just think that certain conceptual threads continue to be resonant, and that these threads are relatable to all the songs/tracks/videos they have done. What these connections create, to me, is something I've never seen before at such an epic level: the possibility of a "concept band" that doesn't merely make concept albums, but completes a cycle of albums related intertextually as a vast "toolshed" of understanding not unlike the Tarot.

That they could do so while also making each song interpretable on several other individual levels is evidence of considerable talent and artistic vision.

Personally I think the stylistic differences of each album are enough to state that they are not one long concept, but companion pieces to each other, and that the connections that can be made by recurring concepts are a reflection upon the interests and ideas that have lasted the test of time in Tool's collective psyche.

This scenario is completely possible and valid.

infinitee
05-12-2009, 06:55 PM
Wasn't I whom started the shit talking to begin with guys.

uhhh....

Everyone except for you, actually.

this^^^


not to get in the middle or take sides, but you kinda did start it

infinitee
05-12-2009, 06:56 PM
this was a nice read, i never once found myself looking over at the scroll bar to see how much was left. your interpretations make perfect sense and are original.

kudos

Inner_Eulogy
05-13-2009, 09:45 AM
not to get in the middle or take sides, but you kinda did start it

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about

0.618
05-13-2009, 12:11 PM
I'm sure there are many who feel the same. I agree completely that individual songs/albums/videos tackle separate topics. And my essay is not meant to challenge the individual interpretations thereof. I am simply identifying a particular set of threads, among many, that appear to unify their text as a whole.

Take Stinkfist, for instance. The FAQ rightly illustrates how the song can simply be about fisting, but also desensitization from another view. So if there are multiple interpretations of each song, the possibility exists for a single thread to run throughout all their songs. That's why my essay makes no claim on being "correct". I'm not interested in dismissing what others interpret. Just illuminating what I see.

Yeah I can see that and I like to read others interpretations, because there might be something to adopt or to challenge own view with.


I definitely agree with this point, and in no way did I mean to infer that they had the whole thing figured out in 1992. I just think that certain conceptual threads continue to be resonant, and that these threads are relatable to all the songs/tracks/videos they have done. What these connections create, to me, is something I've never seen before at such an epic level: the possibility of a "concept band" that doesn't merely make concept albums, but completes a cycle of albums related intertextually as a vast "toolshed" of understanding not unlike the Tarot.

That they could do so while also making each song interpretable on several other individual levels is evidence of considerable talent and artistic vision.


Yeah, maybe these resonant themes are based on some constructive values. Of course, making the work work as a whole requires some very fine craftmanship.


From puscifer.

Shit happens to some of us. Traumatizing events occur and then we spend the rest of our lives, either consciously or unconsciously, trying to work it out. Some of us become the aggressors, inflicting the same trauma on others. Some of us medicate. Some of us become creative and use different mediums to express our pain and healing process. It’s a long process. And it of course gets worse before it gets better. If you happen to be one of the fortunate few who can express your self in a way with which people empathize, it can get even more difficult. The unhealthy behavior, which can surface during the healing process, is often times applauded. They applaud because you’ve touched on an experience with which they can relate. They applaud, you feel better, but only for a while. No ground is gained if we as artists only do it to be desired, praised, or accepted. The trick, for those who have chosen this expressive path, is to remember why you’re here. The trick is to remember that you’re here to heal and find resolution. That way if you stray off the path, or are seduced by the unhealthy accolades, you will be able to find your way back to the path. There are only so many metaphors for “feel my pain,” “woe is me,” and “pity this broken man.” Eventually we need to move beyond the trauma, otherwise we’re just a broken record and we offer no hope to anyone. If these stories aren’t healing us, the teller of the tales, then how the hell are they going to help in the healing process of anyone else? Where is the hope if we are required to remain stationary, to continue picking scabs rather than move on to healthier places? So, Remember. The goal for us is resolve and healing. The hope is that with each stage along the way, new understandings emerge. It would seem then that with each new threshold achieved, prior darker states of being become less and less relevant. And we in theory continue to move towards a lighter state of being



I think you're on the right track here. If I recall correctly the band has stated that each album is indicative of the group's thoughts, emotions, and headspace as a whole at that point in time. Personally I think the stylistic differences of each album are enough to state that they are not one long concept, but companion pieces to each other, and that the connections that can be made by recurring concepts are a reflection upon the interests and ideas that have lasted the test of time in Tool's collective psyche.


Well said.

infinitee
05-13-2009, 12:18 PM
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about

i dont have any clue what im talking about when i say "not to get in the middle or take sides"?

mind explaining to me how?

infinitee
05-13-2009, 04:35 PM
well, i try not to judge people, especially online, i just think that that was sort of un-called for.

0ctopod
05-13-2009, 05:42 PM
Thanks for the kudos, Infinitee.

Inner_Eulogy
05-14-2009, 09:33 AM
i dont have any clue what im talking about when i say "not to get in the middle or take sides"?

mind explaining to me how?

No, you have no clue because you're claiming I started the shit talking and you're fucking wrong.

Inner_Eulogy
05-14-2009, 09:34 AM
Don't let him bother you, infiniman. He's just a self-important hypocrite who just loves to tell people they don't know what they're talking about when he's wrong about something.

HAHAAAA

That's a good one.

It would hold water if it wasn't so full of holes though.

Inner_Eulogy
05-14-2009, 09:38 AM
I don't blame you for trying not to, but uncalled for is the guy's middle name. The only reason he wouldn't come back at you with another insult is because I said he would, in a frail attempt at spite.

Uncalled for? Riiiight motherfucker, considering you're the one who started the shit talking, considering YOU'RE the one that was being entirely disrespectful and even a big enough low life scum to talk shit about my son whom you know absolutely nothing about. You're the fucking hypocritical egotistical low life fucking cowardly little boy here, not me....get it fucking right for once.

Infiniman, you shouldn't believe a word that piece of shit tells you, that's the truth.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the kudos, Infinitee.

well, they were deserved. i never thought of most of the things that i read in it.

it's too bad that we got so far off topic...

infinitee
05-14-2009, 11:36 AM
well, i'll just stay out of it, then

Inner_Eulogy
05-14-2009, 11:47 AM
well, i'll just stay out of it, then

Nah, you're totally right. It'd be nice to actually stick with a topic. I'm just tired of hearin his cocky hypocritical disrespectful punk ass

infinitee
05-14-2009, 11:56 AM
well, then, lets get back on track.

ive never even heard of the lateralus tendon until i read this. the whole jacob's ladder and H. and eleven stuff was amazing. i cant believe anyone could ever come up with all of that, be it maynard, or be it you. even if youre going the the complete opposite direction that maynard had in mind, it's still amazing that you could link together all of the metaphors in your own way. imo, that's even better than getting it exactly right, which it may be, but you get what im saying.

Inner_Eulogy
05-14-2009, 12:34 PM
I agree, they prefer their fans to interpret it like you would a painting, we may all come to different ideas. Albeit, I've found some ideas to be entirely nonsensical but many that have been great. Through digging enough information as it is about the band and their views and interests which are intertwined into the music I've learned so much.

You see, Rivek's whiny gripe about me is that in the past I would rip on the few people that had ideas that I found to be completely lame. I hardly ever do that anymore with one or two exceptions. Problem is, he used to be right there beside me ripping on even more people than I was and now he's fucking tootin his little whistle acting like he's better than everybody when he's really just a tasteless jack ass. Not to mention even sat there and spoke completely derogatory about myself and my son. Internet or not, he has no class whatsoever, regardless whatever retort he'll surely come up with, he's still a fuckin loser.

Anyways, I'm done and I'd like to get back on some actual topics. He's not worth my time.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 12:42 PM
well, it's pretty fucked up to bring up someone's son like, whether you know them or not, whether you on the internet or not.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 01:29 PM
why dont you two just ignore each other?

infinitee
05-14-2009, 01:31 PM
This is the latest version of an essay I wrote two years ago on (-) Ions. It has a lot of new info, so if you've read it before please give it another whirl. It's on a new site and no longer on my old blog.

http://hubpages.com/hub/negativeions

Comments appreciated.

and with that, let's try to back on track...again.

Rolo
05-14-2009, 02:23 PM
^
LOL, nice try, Rivek.
You'll remember, no doubt.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Ignore who?

you and Inner_Eulogy

infinitee
05-14-2009, 02:52 PM
well, apparently i missed the butt...

Rolo
05-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Me and who?


(come on, it's not that hard to get, guys)

^
LOL

I did get it

infinitee
05-14-2009, 03:13 PM
mind enlightening me?

Rolo
05-14-2009, 03:19 PM
I don't think i have to.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
never said you had to, just asked. politely i may add :D

Rolo
05-14-2009, 03:24 PM
BTW, Rivek, isn't it time for a new sig?

infinitee
05-14-2009, 03:28 PM
oh, just ignore me, then

Rolo
05-14-2009, 03:51 PM
oh, just ignore me, then

Not intending to explain the obvious, sorry.

Rolo
05-14-2009, 04:30 PM
You are correct, sir

My signature now links to a video that released to IRC yesterday, and Toolnavy proper a few hours later.

It is hilarious to those who are truly a part of what makes TDN great. All others deserve to be banned.

It made me LOL, Mr Blonde

Rolo
05-14-2009, 04:36 PM
If i may suggest, a referal to Navy SEALS (ToolNavy IRC perhaps?)

Yast3r
05-14-2009, 05:09 PM
So you placed an avatar for when a character from Reservoir dogs speaks. I fail to see the humour, but I'm sure it's there. But that guy eating slices of gravy--now that, there is something rather peculiar about that.

Yast3r
05-14-2009, 05:47 PM
This is what is known as "missing the point".

EDIT: Then again you'd have to actually know people around Toolnavy to get it, so that's natural.

Ignorance is bliss.

Rolo
05-14-2009, 05:50 PM
This is what is known as "missing the point".

EDIT: Then again you'd have to actually know people around Toolnavy to get it, so that's natural.

E4T as Mr Pink made me ROFL

Also; Rivek, back off with that razorblade!

Rolo
05-14-2009, 06:03 PM
Rolo, if I was a butt cowboy, I wouldn't even throw you to the posse.

I just recognized some of the typecasts from what i've read around here. Nothing more.

infinitee
05-14-2009, 06:52 PM
Not intending to explain the obvious, sorry.

okay

Inner_Eulogy
05-15-2009, 07:37 AM
I fail to see how I "started anything" when you were running your mouth while I was, um, probed, and could not access the boards to start anything.

Dumbass.

Also, here's a tip: if you don't want disrespect from me, stop treating people disrespectfully.

Apparently your dumbass absent mind forgot about the fact that we were getting along just fine until I went into Interact for the first time and all you did was talk shit to me and even created a separate thread just to run your fuckin' mouth. Shortly after was when you started bringing my son into this. So don't sit there and fucking play stupid.

And protip for yourself, I haven't been disrespecting anybody on here for one, maybe with one exception over a month ago if not more and two, you're the last fucking person that has ANY fucking room to talk about being disrespectful to others. You sat here and ragged on and chewed up just as many people on these forums if not more than I did in the not so distant past, and you still do at times...so quit being such a fucking hypocrite.

0ctopod
05-26-2009, 07:16 AM
Newest essay is linked in the Lateralus section.

infinitee
05-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Newest essay is linked in the Lateralus section.

Finally, we're back to the initial point of this thread.