Thoughts on Composing

[Elgyn]

I see a lot of people composing music, whether they share it or not. I'm just wondering if there is any method to your composition?

Are you looking to achieve a certain sound, such as a compelling bridge section, a chorus which stylishly resolves the tension of the verse, or are you recording for the enjoyment of it and hoping for the best?

Are you musically trained, or do you have some knowledge of scales and chord progressions? Perhaps you just worked a lot of things out for yourself.

Sometimes I think teaching is only good up until a certain point, because it can end up cloudly creativity, and restricting it to certain "rules"... As is true in many things though, you have to understand the rules before you can break them, so I think learning some theory is a bonus. I've learned quite a bit about scales, intervals, and cadences and so on, and it has helped give me another angle of perspective when composing.

A lot of this stuff seems to come intuitively to me though. Not a brag or anything, but I can generally pick up a melody, and convert to my guitar quite easily. It certainly helped to know some theory.

What instrument(s) do you play?

I'm just curious as to what approach everyone takes to composing. Maybe its electronic music, and you just explore the outcome of different melodies and rhythms, but I'd like to know.

thanks,

. . o O o . .

[JTCrace]

First of all, I began playing guitar when I was nine. Never really liked it too much; never took lessons. I took up the drums when I was fifteen and for the last three years (I am 20) I have been very serious--taking lessons, practicing hours on end, etc. After I mastered the Moeller method, I realized I could play just as fast as any of those cats out there. As of now I play in a Celtic rock band called Homeland out of Dayton, OH (check me out at www.homelandmusic.com). We make about $400-2000 a gig. I figure I'll play with these guys until I get out of school then possibly venture out into the world of professional music.

I do still play the guitar and I love to write songs. I know your basic chords and variations and that's about it. When I write a tune I usually just hum a melody and match it with the guitar. Every once in a while I'll write something spontaneously; I just sort of start playing it out of nowhere.

After I come up with a riff, I decide whether it sounds like a chorus or verse or interlude or bridge, or whatever.

After I decide if I have a verse or chorus or whatever I just stop playing and listen. That's right, just fucking listen. Usually I can come up with a following part by doing this.

I try and stay away from the classic song structure as much as possible (chorus-verse-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus) but sometimes its unavoidable. I like to add different little bridges. Also, being a drummer at heart, I can hear the drums in my head when I write so that helps as far as transitions and dynamics are concerned.

You are right about the limitedness of teaching. They say every great student at some point surpasses his teacher. To drop all paradigms and break the rules is what pushing the envelope is all about.

I am definitely a seat -of-the-pants musician. Besides drum lessons (which normally don't cover melody and harmony and cadence (whatever the hell that is)) I have no musical training. But music affects me in different ways for different reasons.

My drum instructor loves "Yes." Personally, I don't like them because the don't make me feel anything. I like emotional music, which means I am all about melody. I like Third Eye Blind because they make me feel like I am in love. I like TOOL because they make me feel out of this world. I like APC because they make me feel human. I like Smashing Pumpkins because they make me feel sad, lonely, hopeless, and gleeful. My favorite melody of all-fucking-time is in the verses in "Good Vibrations" by the Beach Boys. When Brian Wilson sings, "I hear the sound of a gentle word..." There is something about that melody-line. I haven't figured it out though. It's like the secret of the universe is in there somewhere, betwixt the sound itself.

[March The Scaffold]

I really want to get into symphonic composing. However, I only took music theory at my high school and that was limited to say the least. I purchased an Encyclopedia of music and I study that all the time. I took lessons for a while also. But, since I don't have the skills to compose symphonically yet, I compose stuff on the drums. It sounds dumb, but I feel I pull it off rather well. I was inspired by Grant Collins, Terry Bozzio, and Marco Minnenamann to start doing this. What you do essentially is just layer ostinato's on top of each other in order to achieve an emotional response from a listener. I am in the process of writing my first composition and it is killer so far. It's mainly in 5/8 with minor time changes throughout. I also have a part with 4/4 over 5/8. The intro utilizes a 16 aginst 4 thing with is rather strange sounding. It's wierd because in 5/4, you usually can't divide snare hits evenly. It's usually the 3 and the 5 or the 2 and the 4 which are both odd sounding because there is a variation in the intervals between the two notes. So what I did was found a way to evenly distribute the snare hits acroos a measure of 5/4. the answer is 5/16! You phrase the snare in 5/16 over the rest of your kit in 5/4. so it goes as follows:



1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 5 e + a
x - - - - - x - - - - - x - - - - - x - - - -


You hit the snare on 1, 2e, 3+, and 4a.



Pretty cool eh?!

[Elgyn]

Wow, thats pretty cool.
I imagine that would be a lot easier electronically than doing it in actual practice though wouldn't it?
Or do you play what you compose on a kit?

I find it interesting to experiment with different drum combinations, but I only ever do it on an electronic level. I wouldn't know where to start if I was in front of a kit. I've picked up everything I know from listening and imitating. I've learned that drums player a bigger part in music than I had previously thought, which is never a bad thing.

I'm away for a few days, but if you have a sample of your composition I'd be interested in hearing it. I'd like to get into symphonic recording as well, its something which I find seriously interesting. I usually listen intently to soundtracks, because that seems to be the main area of development. Its pretty amazing the mood flows in that kind of music, and I'd like to combine that with something a little more contemporary. I like APC's incorporation of the violin, it can make some beautiful songs. Just something I'd like to get into given the time and finance.

Keep 'em coming.

. . o O o . .

[March The Scaffold]

Well, like I said before, I'm still in the process of writing it, and I don't have any way to record. Not to mention that I am going to need to practice it quite a bit when I actually finish it. I try to write things slightly above my current leval of independence (between my limbs) with the ostinato's so over a period of time I will progress. Unfortunetly, my 2 kits are at my 2 bands' houses. So I can never practice. I'm currently saving up for another set though. However, when I finish writing it out, I could probably scan the sheet music for you, provding you can read drum notation...

[deviatedwolf625]

I find I can't compose by myself, that I need someone there, I'll get brilliant ideas, things off the wall, things I didn't think of before ....

When I do occasionally sit down and compose, I feel like my fingers do the thinking, and all my mind does is apply theory to it ....


I play bass though so that might have something to do with it.

It's amazing, what I can do when I'm with the right person, someone like me who has grand inspirations just the same way I do.

[Sandoz]

I always start with an idea, something I want to express. It can be a title, an image, a feeling (but always with an angle. I'm not good enough to just write a song about "love").

It sounds simple, but it's very hard because ideas are fleeting things, ethereal. Kind of like catching a goldfish while wearing fogged googles or something. But once I've got a good idea of the idea, so to speak, I can draw everything from it. Once again to use a shitty metaphor it's like my musical culture forms a kind of filter and I filter that idea through it and what's left is the elements I want for the song... Not that I only use elements from other songs, let's say, to use an other shitty metaphor, I draw the blueprints for the song in my head, and fill in the holes with elements from other stuff I thought were awesome, and adapt them so all of those fit into "something that feels fresh and exciting, and more importantly LOUD at any volume."

I haven't actually composed or done anything outside my head at this point, but I know exactly what I want the song to be like... and this is the tedious part of the job. I sit down at the piano, get together with the band, and we try, we try, we change things also, until we reach something I'm satisfied with.

I'm a classically trained pianist, so I'm well versed in musical theory, mainly because I think you need to understand the rules so you can transcend them if you're a genius, or just break them if you're me. My first draft for songs is something very classical, but I always hate that. So I grab that and rape it and rape it and rape it and rape it and rape it and lock it in my basement for a few weeks before I rape it again and rape it again. Then I record its screams, and that's my song.

[Machiavelli70]

I found that compositionally, one of the best ways to develop a style of your own is that bastard-child begetting of semi-plagarizing: rewriting. Sorry, but I thought that was a fun description. Taking something that's already written gives you the inspiration you may be lacking, the start you need. It's quite helpful in a writer's block. You know what the initial sound is, and therefore, it's that much easier to find the elements that you add, and to define yourself. Who could define a word without the words before it?

As for rewriting, I don't think it's really a death of creativity. All musicians, writers of any sort, all creational impulses are the sum of their influences. "Original" music is just when you put the blender on puree.

[deviatedwolf625]

Excellent post Sandoz, very excellent indeed

I knew very little theory up until recently. I've gotten the tip of the iceberg, and started learning scales and chords, so I know how to write more complex bass lines, guitar lines to my complex bass lines, ect.

Eventually, I want to be able to be a solo composer, an excellent part of a band, and a writer. All of these are achievable IMHO.

*shrug* But my thoughts on composing are simple, I stated them above.

This is just a pointless rant.

[48&2]

ok i really dont think im on the same scale as some of the other muso's in this thread but this is how i go about it... (i play bass btw)

first off i will get a cool sounding riff in my head, it may be something i heard from another band, or it may be something i made up myself. i then get home and try to play this riff. most of the time i will work it out and then keep adding little variations and tweaks to refine it a bit more until it is unique and something i could call my own, i will then figure out the timing etc and throw it into guitar pro, in there i will add some sort of percussion to make it sound more complete, then when i am finnaly happy with it i will keep it and then decide whether it should be a verse, chorus, bridge, intro, outro etc.... most of the time i will stop here because i lack motivation or the tune is heading in the wrong direction...

then i repeat the cycle once again... maybe one day i will come up with something brilliant and i will have the motivation to make a complete song, until then however im quite happy just having fun with it all...

[rockfan7]

Well, I've taken piano lessons for almost nine years now (since i was in first grade). I only started composing stuff about a year ago. Mostly I compose classical-style stuff, although I love to make up riffs on the guitar. I want to start taking guitar lessons sometime in the near future.

Right now I'm working on a piece for the Cello. It sounds pretty good (if you like classical). I submitted a piano piece into some PTA comptetition called "Reflections" a while back and won third place in WA.

I don't really have a specific way of composing... I just write down what I hear in my head. I don't strive for a certain "feel" or "mood". I just do what comes to me. It's kind of freaky sometimes how I can compose this super-complex and beautiful piece in my head yet I can never get something that good on paper. After I've got a rough version of a piece down, then I'll play through it five or six times and listen for places that need improvement. Then I'll just fool around with melodies till I come up with someting I like. My method is very unorganized :)

As far as scales and chord progressions go... I've been doing the scales all nine years and I'm fucking sick of them. Also, right now I'm working through this book called "The Basics of Harmony" or something like that. It teaches all of the rules about chord progressions like parallel fifths, leading tones, and all that good stuff. I really hate it, but I'm sure that it will help me in the long run.

One of the reasons I like Tool so much is because of their compositional skills. They use amazing dynamics and weird chord progressions that compliment the vocals. They use dissonance to create beauty. Basically, they are everything I wish I could be.

That's all for now. I'll be checking back on this thread to see what kinds of other musicians are on these forums. Later.

[GernBlanston]

i do what i'm doing now. i smoke pot until i'm really relaxed. then i plug in, put the headphones on and place my hands on my guitar. my songs are pretty repetetive in nature, mostly because when i write, i'm high. i'll play until i can pick out a sequence of notes or a melody that grabs my attention. then i'll repeat it over and over, until i'll remember it (thats the repetetive part). then, it could be weeks later, whenever i play for another session, i remember what i wrote and play it until it sounds almost the same as the first time, but then i'll be in a different place, so the music tends to drift off somewhere different. a ton of my songs have been written this way, just bits and pieces layered and layered. i have some 'songs' that have taken years to put together just because of this method. and now, when i practice, its usually just a big blend of music. my music's kind of tailored to segues, i guess.

[whalethesecond]

As for rewriting, I don't think it's really a death of creativity. All musicians, writers of any sort, all creational impulses are the sum of their influences. "Original" music is just when you put the blender on puree.[/QUOTE]

This is an eternal question; is a muscicians music the sum of all that he has listened to or is there something entirely new. I would say that all 'transcendental' - truly real music - comes from silence. That is to say it comes from emotions, it comes from archetypal images - archetypal conflicts in the soul and ideas. however of course one can only create music having interacted in the musical world; yet somehow personal style must be somewhow new. For how then would music advance? We would still just be cycling around in the same regurgitated stuff.

[Machiavelli70]

Music requires intent and knowledge. Just beating the shit out of an instrument is the same as playing random things -- with no intent is no music.

That's not to say that euphony-based composition isn't music. But the general populace isn't ready or willing to devote their attention and contemplation towards music. Yet.

[erishkigal]

I write my music on guitar pro 4 which is good because I can hear what it sounds like. I try and write power metal and black metal, basically just melodic metal and it comes out how it is. I pretty much hate all my songs the day after they are finished because I have very high standards for myself.
I think they are quite good for my current situation, I play guitar and have limited theory training due to my music teacher being quite alternative. He's awsome but I would like to learn more writing stuff.

I think I could maybe write some beter songs if I did it on just my guitar and not Gp4. Also maybe limit myself to less than 16 instruments.
I write with no idea of where the song is going to go so sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad, It'll be an epic orchestral peice then launch into some iron maiden or in flames style riff which can either sound semi decent or horrible.

If anyone wants to hear any of my guitar pro compositions i'd be more than happy to send them to you, even though i'm embarased on their level of shiteness.

In New Zealand we have an awsome band called Cripple Mr Onion who are awsome, They are like cross between tool and deftones but original at the same time. Their bass player plays an 8 string bass and is bloody awsome with it. Yeah, I just said that because they have inspired me for today with their share awsomeness and i'm pretty excited about them.

[EricMatthewLeavell]

well, i've been playing music for about 9 years, picked up the guitar two years ago, and almost a year ago I shifted to mainly being a bass player. I would play alto or tenor saxophone in my school concert and jazz bands, so I know some theory, and the like. I took some sax lessons where I focused on jazz, but i was pretty young then, so I didn't stick to it.

I bought an acoustic guitar, and just learned tool songs, and other songs until I just started jamming with myself. I have basically a whole acoustic album (www.neuroleptic.org/ericshared/acoustic.htm) that was simply inspired by emotional events of the time.

I bought a bass from a friend who was selling his and just used it (albiet poorly) to compliment my acoustic stuff. I joined two bands that I had previously been involved in (either I jammed with them on another bassists bass, or I played another instrument (tabla) so I was part of the band, but they needed a bass player). And well, composition consists of jamming, and then compiling the song in the best way it sounds.

I also manage, produce, whatever my girlfriends band. Like, I'll go to their practices, listen to them jam a little, and help them compose some stuff. Since they are just starting out they arn't really sure how to compose and write music, so I'm sort of a guide, and I have a lot of recording equipment. There is some serious talent in that band and some of the stuff that they are going to start recording is pretty impressive.

[Elgyn]

Having tried to record a band-like song on my own, I begin to wonder just what it would be like to compose with four different peoples ideas battling it out in a real band situation. I imagine this would add diversity to composition, but I've never really tried it.

Good to see this thread still kicking along.

Just a note to Jeroth: It helps to first understand the rules before attempting to break them. The bands which you've mentioned - Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin - are still composing within the bounds of western music's scales. Sure they stretched the realms of possibility, but particularly in LZ's case, this was done mostly towards the end of their time together when they presumably would have had a LOT of experience behind them.

I do however agree that thinking too rigidly within theory can be a bad thing. I definately think it's good to let go and just see what flows. This hoever could similarly be likened to writing a story without fully grasping English, or painting a painting with one's eyes closed, and just 'feeling' the strokes. Music is different though, and I'll grant that.

An interesting question, which I've just thought of...

Is it enough to write music just for yourself?
Assuming that's what you're a bedroom musician; are you content to remain that way?

[SmallWangedMan]

My head is totally bogged down with all kinds of theory out the yin yang and I feel it limits me sometime. I'd like to think that I sit down and create an idea without concentrating. If I find an idea I like, then I apply theory and see where I can logically take it. The problem is getting the theory out of my head long enough to write something interesting. I'm a pretty miserable person, and I find myself going for that minor 3rd harmony every 6 seconds.

I'm inevitably frustrated by composing, because I'm not satisfied unless it's the best thing I've ever heard. Which it never is. I follow the ideas that really impress me the most. Through all this retarded theory, I've discovered one of the most impressive things, to me, is just writing a beautiful melody. If I can do that I like to pair it with unlikely chords and progressions and see if I can make a really unique feel. The other thing I'm really impressed by is really complex compositions. I always get frustrated however because I want to make parts that flow into and out of each other, like a number of great piano compositions, instead of just loosely related parts stapled together. This is a really difficult thing for me however which is probably why I find it so incredible when I hear it. Oh well...

[Machiavelli70]

I wholeheartedly agree with SWM. I have the music theory as well. And it can kill you. I can't listen to a lot of music that I want to nowadays because of voice training from me mum -- they sound out of tune and I can't even listen if I want to.

Composing with other musicians: If you're gonna compose with a band, I suggest you do a lot of covers first. You can't expect to adapt and flow with your band if you're not tight, and the only way to do that is to play songs that have an expected aural outcome, and match that, then change it to fit your band, not the original performers. That evolution allows you to become talented writers, rather than three separate people trying to mash their ideas into a single unit.

[SmallWangedMan]

This is a good thread.

[Fink]

It's hard to think outside the box if you can't even see the box.

[EricMatthewLeavell]

Composing with other musicians: If you're gonna compose with a band, I suggest you do a lot of covers first. You can't expect to adapt and flow with your band if you're not tight, and the only way to do that is to play songs that have an expected aural outcome, and match that, then change it to fit your band, not the original performers. That evolution allows you to become talented writers, rather than three separate people trying to mash their ideas into a single unit.

that's what i always tell people. It's just a good way to see how well you can work with people.

[OftenLost]

It's hard to think outside the box if you can't even see the box.
In regaurds to music and music theory, that was probably the smartest thing I've ever read on this board.

[sound.out.light]

Dont mean to be rude or anything, this is just my opinion. I understand that certain chord progressions just sound good and whatnot, and i agree in learning the basics of your instrument(chords for guitar etc), but in my mind MUSIC HAS NO RULES, the best music that has been produced has always come from artists that just do what they want, look at Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Tool, Jimmy Hendrix etc. Im not saying that you cant get anywhere if you take lessons and learn the theory, Adam Jones is an example, but i just find that if i dont learn what these so called "rules of music" are, then my creativity has no boundries. Just my 2 cents.


i have found that learning theory has helped my writing tremendously simply because ive been introduced to possiblities that i would never have come across on my own. im not saying i want to play by the book but applying certain techniques, learning your fretboard, learning your equipment inside and out, and some music theory can really really open some doors. i have a tendency of getting trapped into certain patterns and keys..learning some theory can really break you out of that. there are plenty of musicians that are very savy in theory and break the rules constantly..look at zappa..early steve vai stuff...king crimson....it can work either way i suppose..but theory has helped me tremendously

[SmallWangedMan]

While I think there is definitely a place for technical, compositional music and non-technical, more minimalist music, I think if you knew some theory Jeroth you would realize how ridiculous

I just find that if i dont learn what these so called "rules of music" are, then my creativity has no boundries

sounds. Music theory covers all boundaries. If you've played it, you can write it down in A#'s and dotted quarter notes.

[IC]

problem is when my band writes a song, we figure out an entire song to start, then go back and write the melody..I suppose this is backwards, but our songs are superior to the other local bands' stuff (not trying to be egotistical sounding, just citing my delema) so what should we do? continue on writting like this, then putting the melody or sacrifice making our songs as good to start witht he melody

[SmallWangedMan]

I don't see anything wrong with that. People write in different styles, at that's just as good a style of writing as anything else.

[Machiavelli70]

There's also a strange cult of workers that manufacture (not write) music by typing numbers [such as the Fibonnaci sequence] into a computer, with no ken of what it will sound like. Those people are called "serialists." And on the other hand, there people like The Mars Volta and Santana who just jam out, with no idea but what the present moment sounds like.

Both are considered types of music. I think you fit in there somewhere.

{On a side note, has anyone noticed a trend of minimalism in QOTSA's music?}

[erishkigal]

I've been listening to God speed you black emperor a little lately and it is fucking amazing. The music is so sublime. It really has inspired me to write some good songs. I'm thinking about doing some kind of classical music tertiary education. Anyone know anything about it?

Machiavelli, qotsa is quite minimalistic. I'm into minimalism at the moment. Particularly burzum and songs like tomhet.

[March The Scaffold]

If you like minimalism, check out The Mercury Program. Minimalist post-rock border-line fusion. It is some really cool stuff.

[Queerest of the Queer]

I do a little composing...I'm third horn in the Greenville Concert Band and play oboe, bassoon, and jazz trumpet as well. I know theory like the back of my hand and can tell you any scale minor or major in any key, but that isnt what i takes. That is a lot of help but true composing comes from your soul.

Im actually going to Indiana U. next year (arguably the best music school in the country, plus they are one of the Big 10) for Music Composition and Education.


I also sing Opera.....just though that kinda fit into the thread....

[deviatedwolf625]

That's cool.

My thoughts on composing, now that I'm seriously trying at it, is that the more effortless it is, the better the composition is. You shouldn't stress over it, it should just happen. One idea, leads to another, leads to another, until the whole train of little ideas has resulted in a big, complete, idea.

I find that when I compose, I do my best when I start with a part. That part gives me another idea, for a part, either on a different instrument, lyrically, or for the next part. And that starts a chain, until its fully written.

And i do think composing individually is among the hardest things a musician will do.

[Queerest of the Queer]

That's cool.

My thoughts on composing, now that I'm seriously trying at it, is that the more effortless it is, the better the composition is. You shouldn't stress over it, it should just happen. One idea, leads to another, leads to another, until the whole train of little ideas has resulted in a big, complete, idea.

I find that when I compose, I do my best when I start with a part. That part gives me another idea, for a part, either on a different instrument, lyrically, or for the next part. And that starts a chain, until its fully written.

And i do think composing individually is among the hardest things a musician will do.

That may be true for "songs" but in instrumental composition you must use lots of theory and reavaluate every aspect of each measure. In the original thoughts of the piece you ofcourse let your creativity run rampant but during the actual writing, no. There is always that infinite amount of time after original composition to change anything you want about it.

[deviatedwolf625]

Very true, QotQ. I'm not much of one into instrumental composition, but I think I made that blatantly obvious.

[Queerest of the Queer]

Very true, QotQ. I'm not much of one into instrumental composition, but I think I made that blatantly obvious.


Thats cool. Music is Music. As long as it touches some ones soul.

[deviatedwolf625]

Yeah, agreed about that.

Someone told me once that he only played complex, technical music, because to him, that was the most expressive. I admitted, though technicality is fun, it's good to have a variety, because sometimes the simplest of songs can have the most impact (Hurt has rendered several people I know, including me, to tears.)

What an ignorant thing for him to say ... I wish i could remember who it was ...

[polarforsker]

It's hard to think outside the box if you can't even see the box.

i agree to a certain extent. But what if you draw the box yourself and then think out of it?

Back to the topic.

When it comes to composing I'm very anarchic. I usually never structure my songs, but try to follow certain emotions, visions or whatever you wan't to call it. Bottom line is a try to form my music as I go along... whatever happens happen.

A note on creativity. I find that I'm usually able to express my creativity best after a week or so listening to as little music as I am able to. A rinsing process of some sort...