religion

[scorpioali]

the literal meaning of the word schism relates to a separation within the church (for example the protestant split with catholicism). last year when i first became an atheist, this song really conveyed how i felt about christianity. "There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting" just said it all for me. but, still, this song has a double meaning for me because i also relate it to a relationship i had with a certain person that fell apart because a lack of communication and understanding. what does thos song mean to the rest of you?

[Dissonance]

And see, as a devout christian this song has a ton of meaning for me as well, Scorpioali. Interesting, no? The beauty of Tool is that its meaningful to people on opposite sides of the fence.

As a christian, this is a rather heavy indictment of the Church to me. (By Church, I mean christians as a group). I have been studying early church history, and the divisions and chaos present in the earlier years are intense. People arguing and fighting over something that is supposed to bring us together. Christianity stayed pretty smooth until just before Christ's death (Yup, peace between Christians lasted less than 3 years. w00t!) and has been mottled with angst and rivalry ever since. Schism goes beautifully along with Reflections as I see because certain people must crucify the ego and let go of the bitterness.

Different churches have different doctrines, some believe in predestination, some dont, some believe in the rapture, some dont, some drink wine, some drink beer, some dont. I think this song really compels the church to get our act together, bind together, and agree to disagree.

Where as Scorpioali sees this as a sort of... conformation of their decision to leave, I see this song as a valuable challenge to the Church at large. I think every pastor needs to throw up the lyrics some sunday morning and say "Maynard is right, guys. Where do we go from here?"

I think, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, Tool would appreciate their music fostering personal growth.

[Reverend Jacob]

This could simply question the human condition of man/woman. Maybe it's time to move beyond it. Maybe the battle of the sexes can end if we're all just people.

[LazyE462]

I think i would tend to agree with reverend Jacob on that one, i think that schism would have to do with any type of relationship. I try not to get the "literal" meaning of the song, and i think that it wouldnt be fair to limit "schism" to separation of church. I think that it really fits good with any kind of relationship.

[paraflux]

Yes, it is not fair to other relationships to limit a schism to a church separation. I looked it up once and the first word it was defined by was rift. nothing of the church is mentioned.

a note of irony...Dissonance, you seem to want people to come together, yet your first statement was that you see yourself as on opposite sides of the fence. The only fences that exist are the ones we personally put up against another perspective. to eliminate the fence altogether should be the goal. Most atheists just reject the christian idea of god, not necessarily that there is no source of energy, which is what i think christians mean when they say god.

personal question. if you see the silliness and the pettiness that the church pits against its own members, why do you stay? dont you think you could get whatever it is you get from church by reading what you need to read and just following it yourself? I just could not stand to witness such hypocrisy, that's why i left.

[nenagh]

The main schism in Christianity is not the Protestant Reformation but the east west schism of 1054. This date is loose bacause there is no one event that defines the Great Schism , it was hundreds of years of small cultural misunderstandings between the Latin church, based in Rome, and the Greek church based in Constantinople, Istanbul after 1453. These cultural misunderstandings, like the use of unlevened bread, and bearded priests grew or degenerated, however you would like, into doctrinal misunderstandings. In the eastern Church the tradition is constant it cannot be changed, in the west, its organic it grows and changes. Because of this the east saw the west as sort of messing with the faith. Keep in mid however, that the east and west churches never excommunicated each other, only a few members of each faith, but, it was interpreted wrongly by both sides. Oh yes, the Church can be wrong. Christ created Christiantiy not the church, the Church is man made and therefore imperfect.

P.S. Look up the word "filioque". Thats the idea that the Holy Spirit and Christ permeate from God the Father. This was one of the major misunderstandings. The east used the word "filioque" in the creed, the west did not and attacked the orthodox for it.

[nenagh]

I left this out. "Schism" does not literaly refer to anything religious. It is just simply a synonym for a break or a split within something. But, over time it has come to be associated stricktly with religion. We can see this in the word "Catholic". It is the name of the largest sect of Christianity, but it also means universal. Islam and Judaeism are "catholic" religions.

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by Dissonance
Christianity stayed pretty smooth until just before Christ's death (Yup, peace between Christians lasted less than 3 years. w00t!) and has been mottled with angst and rivalry ever since.

how could there be christianity before christ's death?
that doesn't make sense.
christ was not a person, jesus was
christ means annointed one, it's not a name
if there was anyone that was really called jesus he didn't die on the cross, he survived.
he rose from the dead (similar to masonic ritual, coincidence?)
"rose" icrucians

[nenagh]

If Christ didn't create Christianity then who did? I was going to ask you not to reply until you had a proper answer, but then i read your other posts. From your extensive knowledge of everything tell me who created Christianity. I will come to where ever you live and kiss your feet if you can give me an answer other then Christ. I don't want any of this conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo either, please. Oh my! I suddenly feel an epiphany coming onto me. I see the truth, nobody created Christianity, its all an illusion, like voting, right?. And while you're at it look up who created Free Masonry and when. I interpreted your sarcasm as saying that the idea that Christ rose from the dead was based on Masonic ritual. I looked up all this "illuminati" stuff. Have you ever studied a society that had no government and organization? Study weastern Europe during the first few centuries after the fall of Rome. Not to say that Rome ever existed or western Europe for that matter. Do that and then think about living in such a society.

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by nenagh [/B]

If Christ didn't create Christianity then who did? [/QUOTE]

What the fuck are you talking about? Christianity wasn't recognized until after Christ's death not before.

From your extensive knowledge of everything[/QUOTE]

I don't know anything.

Oh my! I suddenly feel an epiphany coming onto me. I see the truth, nobody created Christianity, its all an illusion, like voting, right?. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, Christianity is an illusion just like you trying to be funny. The electoral college picks the president not us tough guy.

And while you're at it look up who created Free Masonry and when.[/QUOTE]

Freemasonry originated from the Knights Templars and no one knows exactly who "started" it, but it looks as though it came from Egypt.

I interpreted your sarcasm as saying that the idea that Christ rose from the dead was based on Masonic ritual. [/QUOTE]

No sarcasm there pal. Jesus also rose people "from the dead"
(everyday life) And rising from the dead is a masonic ritual, it's factual.

I looked up all this "illuminati" stuff. [/QUOTE]

"The Illuminati" was created by Adam Weishapt(sp) in 1776? or 1777? He was also a freemason.

Have you ever studied a society that had no government and organization? [/QUOTE]

No, I don't rely on history. I bet you think Columbus was the first to discover this country and that he didn't murder 25,000,000 Indians. If you ever read Columbus's diary you will find it disturbing.

Study weastern Europe during the first few centuries after the fall of Rome. [/QUOTE]

Please don't tell me what to do. Do you really think that goverments today would really want us to read about societies that worked fine without control? I'm not saying this is the case with western Europe because I don't know and niether do you.

I am an "anarchists" or at least that's what i would be labeled as. The natives of this country were fine without a government, now they live in pens and can go to our shitty schools for free. But i guess that evens out the past? anyway, they should be running this country, nobody else. I am in favor of going back to the old ways and i don't give a fuck what anyone thinks.

Not to say that Rome ever existed or western Europe for that matter. [/QUOTE]

Yeah.

Do that and then think about living in such a society. [/QUOTE]

nokay.

By the way, why do people always get upset with people that are into conspiracies? It's not like we are trying to hurt anybody. We want people to know the truth, we are on the people's side. Even if you don't agree why argue and make fun of something you don't know anything about? I believe the government loves it when we fight with each other. They feed off the negativity. Eveyone should settle down and starting thinking with the combination of heart and mind.
Bad times are ahead.

[nenagh]

Originally posted by George Bush Sr.


[B]If Christ didn't create Christianity then who did?

what i meant was that the people who followed Christ before his death, they didn't know themselves as such, but they were just as Christian as anyone today is, they had the same beleif structure. the chrush didn't need to exist for the beleifs to. they called themselves Nisseans, they were a sect within Judaeism




Freemasonry originated from the Knights Templars and no one knows exactly who "started" it, but it looks as though it came from Egypt.

the Freemasons call themselves such because they think of themselves as the direct decendants of masons. people who form brick and build with them. their idea is that they are the direct decendants of the people who built all the gret palaces and castles and churches, pretty much all of Europe. and so their enitled to contolling it
at least thats what ive alwayss read.



I looked up all this "illuminati" stuff. [/QUOTE]

"The Illuminati" was created by Adam Weishapt(sp) in 1776? or 1777? He was also a freemason.

He was also a jesuit

Please don't tell me what to do. Do you really think that goverments today would really want us to read about societies that worked fine without control? I'm not saying this is the case with western Europe because I don't know and niether do you.

name one society that worked fine without control. i really am interested in knowing if it is possible. seriously

I am an "anarchists" or at least that's what i would be labeled as. The natives of this country were fine without a government, now they live in pens and can go to our shitty schools for free. But i guess that evens out the past? anyway, they should be running this country, nobody else. I am in favor of going back to the old ways and i don't give a fuck what anyone thinks.

Natives had government just as sophisticated as we. it is thought that maybe the six nations confederacy existed prior to european contact. and look at the incas the aztecs the mayans. they had governments. a heirarchy always existed within all native tribes. always


Do that and then think about living in such a society. [/QUOTE]

nokay.

By the way, why do people always get upset with people that are into conspiracies? It's not like we are trying to hurt anybody. We want people to know the truth, we are on the people's side. Even if you don't agree why argue and make fun of something you don't know anything about? I believe the government loves it when we fight with each other.
true
They feed off the negativity.
true, to an extent, but this is the amrican government. im presuming you're american by the way you speak. the fact is not all ideologies wants this. i have no respect for democracy just so you know. it like musollini said, "it limits the strong to protect the weak".

good talkig to you

[Lamb&Martyr]

Schism could mean many things to me. It could be a love relationship which was broken apart by an unforeseeable occurence (such as death) or it could be a lost friendship. It could, as someone has already noted, be a division of the church and thier strifes. Although, personally, I believe that the TRUE church is not a church at all, but rather a gathering of people. I believe those who have accepted the Christ into thier hearts and are open-minded and believe in compassion for his/her fellow man, then that is a pillar of the church. A building with some guy who has studied the Bible all his life who teaches in a physical building does not constitute as a church in my mind. But fuck it, what do I know?

[xxATROPHYxx]

well to the guys arguing, id have to agree and say that there were christians long before Jesus. the people that belived in the god of abraham in the old testament were christian in the sense of the word today

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by xxATROPHYxx
well to the guys arguing, id have to agree and say that there were christians long before Jesus. the people that belived in the god of abraham in the old testament were christian in the sense of the word today

Why weren't they called Abrahamians? There is no definite sense of the word today. Our leaders are christians and....

[xxATROPHYxx]

actually i was mistaken the people in the old testament that belived in the god of abraham were just jews. my mistake. but i still find it funny that someone who wants live like the indians in the old days dosnt. if you think your so right about this do it. get off your computer and the governments internet wear a little pice of cloth and kill your own food. dont spend the rest of your life bitchin about the way things should be and live the way you want . and really who cares about the natives, survival of the fitest they got beat down and now we are on top ,and why is that, cause they didnt have enough structure to band together and fight the white man. now you live in the white mans world ah ha ha ha ha it sux get over it

[George Bush Sr.]

you are a genius

[joster15]

I agree with your idea that it has to do with religion. That perception of the song was not known to me and I can see where you are going with it. Although, I do kind of lean towards my view of it, which is that of relationships. But the part about communication is very true to me though. I believe that communication is the key ingredient to any successful relationship and that one without it is doomed to falter. And I only say that I agree more with mine because there are many things in the song that I could not find to have any appliance to religion and the split between religious groups. Although, the title itself does mean that. Well, once again, Tool is ingenius to be able to write a song like this and for it to have such a workable double meaning.

[th3rdeye]

Have any of you thought that maybe this song as more than 1 meaning? *gasp* Argh, i'm going to bed.

[paraflux]

Rediscover Communication. Do you think this just means we need to talk to each other more? Or perhaps rediscover what true communication is, the interaction of ideas and thoughts on another plane in order to create something?

[Dissonance]

I havent checked this thread in awhile.

To answer a question I was asked: Why do I stay? Because I see the bigger picture. Yes, some churches disagree on the smaller stuff. But we all agree Jesus Christ is Lord and that He forgives our sins. Thats the core of christian doctrine and no serious christian church would dispute that claim. So we agree on the basic principles just not on the minutae. So I stay because I want to grow with a community of people striving for the same goals.

Also, George Bush, Jesus DID die. Thats a historical fact. No one, not even the most rabid atheist, will say that Jesus did not live, die on a cross, and get buried in a tomb. Research first, then post.

I am amazed at the backlash that Christianity gets on this board. At the first mention of it, some people feel the need to crap all over it. In this thread, I was merely commenting on how the song came across to me and the value I saw in it. I especially wanted to have healthy, nonagressiver discussion about how we could see the song talking about the same thing but get different messages. Instead, the thread gets hijacked by nihilists with a grudge. Its sad really that some people cant even offer intelligent criticize Christianity, they just make odd claims with no evidence or reason. I appreciate those of you who asked inteligent questions and made honest queries.

[George Bush Sr.]

Originally posted by Dissonance



Also, George Bush, Jesus DID die. Thats a historical fact. No one, not even the most rabid atheist, will say that Jesus did not live, die on a cross, and get buried in a tomb. Research first, then post.



Why would you assume I haven't done research ? Many people believe that christ did not die on the cross. Many books were written. I believe some guy named Danny Carey has a website that hints at Jesus not dying on the cross. Research first, then post.

[paraflux]

I agree with Dissonance in the aspect of the thread turning blatantly stupid. both sides, now. I am not saying I will not explain my problems with Christianity, Dissonance, but I would do so in a manner worthy of discussion. What has happened above in the thread is mindless prattle.

[George Bush Sr.]

It was ranting and I enjoyed it.

[DXRocker73]

I have a question? Why does every Tool song have to be about religon? I mean almost every forum based on a song here has at least one topic topic pertaing to a religous interpretation.

[paraflux]

I think most of Tool's songs deal with spirituality, especially post-Undertow Tool. People feel that and since most people's frame of reference as far as spirituality goes is tied to the church (which is SO not the case) they start talking religion.

Spirituality=waking up
Religion=a dream

[DXRocker73]

Religon and Spirituality are theoetically the same thing. But Spirituality doesn't need religon, depending on what you believe.

[paraflux]

Religion is a philosophy built to live spiritually.
Spirituality spans dimension, is a direct relationship with the source.
These cannot be theoretically the same thing. Like apples and oranges. You dont need spirituality to be involved with religion, as is so blatantly obvious by the state of churches today. You dont need religion to get spiritual, ancient religions or philosophies were used as a means of attaining spirituality, but today it seems like we are better off finding a group of friends with similar thoughts and doing it our way. Its certainly possible to know spirituality without going to a church or ritualistic service.

[nenagh]

to: Dxrocker73

No offense, but, you did neglect to mention the fact that almost every single post also has something against religion on it. You did. Plus, people reply to specific songs because specific song mean specific things to specific people. There are billions of pius people out there, many on these boards, and is it so hard to beleive that togeter they can come up with 54 different interpretations of all 54 songs. I don't think it is

By the way, if any one thinks i was arguing, i apologize.

[BigCheese]

personal question. if you see the silliness and the pettiness that the church pits against its own members, why do you stay? dont you think you could get whatever it is you get from church by reading what you need to read and just following it yourself? I just could not stand to witness such hypocrisy, that's why i left.

For me personally (being a Christian myself) I stay for the same reason as Dissonance. He explained it much better than I could (I'm not the best person with speech/writing in the world). I just wanted to say I agreed.

Another reason to go is to share Christianity with others, and show them what you believe is to be the "correct path" in life (or whatever you want to call it). Just as Tool is writing songs about how to forgive, be patient, and deal with disagreements, and showing it to us through music, Christianity's viewpoint gets out there as well.

The thing I don't like about people's views on religion is the fact that the anti-religious people tend to bash the Christians/Jews/etc simply for their beliefs, and yet at the same time, they bring up the fact that they themselves were rejected/made fun of for their believes/whatever their story is. I find many contradictions with those believes too.

I hope I got my point across, so many times I have opinions in my head, but they never EVER come out right. Hense few people around me understand me. But anyways, those were my opinions.

[RRed]

Religion is a receptical of thoughts and beliefs that we can access to inform and educate for simplicities sake. Its a carnal invention created by none other than our selves. It simplifies and reduces the amount of thought and mental and sprititual exploration one would need to completely understand a specific collection of complex metaphysical ideas and conceptions. It is something we subscribe to because we find that we may agree with a few tenants and claims of such and such religion and then we ascribe to it as a whole. Just like someone who votes on a party line. If you agree strongly with the Republicans on a cretain issue, often times, we may just simply agree with republicans on other issues. But the fact of the matter is if you took the effort to explore the intricate aspects of thier other political slants perhaps you wouldn't agree with them at all.

Religion is just like any other institution. Don't confuse religion with belief.

The problem is that people are often to afraid or lethargic to explore things they don't completely understand. So we resort to Religion to simplify things, to minimize our thinking. To think for us. To give us the results of thier findings.

Believe. Simply believe. But don't believe in the shadow of guilt or because someone told you to. Believe because you've explored yourself, your life, your surroundings and found what ever you have found to be true. Challenge your self and your emotions. Find the origin of your pain and start there. Thats what religion is intended to do but it has out grown itself and has divereged from the very thing that spured it on.

That is something religion can never provide. Your own experience. Revel in that, for it is truely holy. It is a gift and as a gift it should be honored. Honor it through your own pursuit and journey to be healed and to help other heal along the way.

RRed

[BigCheese]

Religion is a receptical of thoughts and beliefs that we can access to inform and educate for simplicities sake. Its a carnal invention created by none other than our selves. It simplifies and reduces the amount of thought and mental and sprititual exploration one would need to completely understand a specific collection of complex metaphysical ideas and conceptions. It is something we subscribe to because we find that we may agree with a few tenants and claims of such and such religion and then we ascribe to it as a whole. Just like someone who votes on a party line. If you agree strongly with the Republicans on a cretain issue, often times, we may just simply agree with republicans on other issues. But the fact of the matter is if you took the effort to explore the intricate aspects of thier other political slants perhaps you wouldn't agree with them at all.

Religion is just like any other institution. Don't confuse religion with belief.

The problem is that people are often to afraid or lethargic to explore things they don't completely understand. So we resort to Religion to simplify things, to minimize our thinking. To think for us. To give us the results of thier findings.

Believe. Simply believe. But don't believe in the shadow of guilt or because someone told you to. Believe because you've explored yourself, your life, your surroundings and found what ever you have found to be true. Challenge your self and your emotions. Find the origin of your pain and start there. Thats what religion is intended to do but it has out grown itself and has divereged from the very thing that spured it on.

That is something religion can never provide. Your own experience. Revel in that, for it is truely holy. It is a gift and as a gift it should be honored. Honor it through your own pursuit and journey to be healed and to help other heal along the way.

RRed

Why does religion keep you from experiencing stuff on your own? I don't seem to understand that. It's like reading from a literature book. You read it, you gain knowledge, and you keep learning if you care to. Like the bible. I hope that made sense, I don't know how to explain it better. But what I'm asking is are you saying that it's one belief, and everyone believes it, and that's it, so you don't have to think, you just believe? That's not true, it's like lyrics. One person who reads Eulogy will interpret it as the eulogy of Jesus Christ, another Ron l. Hubbard, another Kurt Cobain, it's just how you interpret it, but the core idea is the same.

I hope I understood you right. But religion doesn't minimize you're thinking (for some, yes it does, people like the woman in "Judith") however, that doesn't mean that you don't explore it yourself.

[neochrist]

your trying to put two peices together that don't fit, to say religion is just a book, such as the bible, is completely wrong, it's one thing to read the bible and take from that, it's another to fully believe in something such as rred is speaking of, if your a true christian, and believe everything christianity preaches then yes, it is just answering a good many of life's mystery's for you, yes you still can experience and learn many things as a christian but to blindly follow anything without question is beyond me, and that's what many people have settled into because they feel safe with that knowledge, to me, life should be experience in a state of vunerable openmindedness, not sheltered with the truth's of religion. i'm not against religions, i'm against just accepting what somebody tells you because most of the people around you agree with it...think for yourself, question authority..

[BigCheese]

your trying to put two peices together that don't fit, to say religion is just a book, such as the bible, is completely wrong, it's one thing to read the bible and take from that, it's another to fully believe in something such as rred is speaking of, if your a true christian, and believe everything christianity preaches then yes, it is just answering a good many of life's mystery's for you, yes you still can experience and learn many things as a christian but to blindly follow anything without question is beyond me, and that's what many people have settled into because they feel safe with that knowledge, to me, life should be experience in a state of vunerable openmindedness, not sheltered with the truth's of religion. i'm not against religions, i'm against just accepting what somebody tells you because most of the people around you agree with it...think for yourself, question authority..

Wait, hold on, I wasn't saying it was just a book, I was using that as an example, that's all. Sorry about the confusion.

And I don't know what it is, but it finally clicked about what you were saying about religion stops you from thinking and experiencing, I finally understand what you mean. Thanks, I dunno why, but it just made sense. :)

In reply to it, yes many people do just blindly follow a religion without question or anything (once again, as the woman in "Judith"). However, that is not always true about all Christians. You have to look at the bigger picture. I'm trying to think of a good example of how to put this. The people who read the bible and supposedly commit hate crimes because of it doesn't mean that everyone of them will do that, it's just a small amount. I think you know what I'm getting at, so I'm not going to elaborate an further. I think me and you are in agreeance, it's just I went with Christianity, and you went with something else, and that's your choice.

One final statement... think for yourself, question authority is a great quote, one that I live by. But there should be an additional footnote whenever that is spoken... "Think for yourself, question authority*"


*Question, NOT reject

[paraflux]

Well, if the answers I get dont gel with my intuition, I will reject that "authority."

Haha Big Cheese I just noticed that you used the same word Fred Durst was nationally critisized for using. Agreeance. Just funny.

Some people here are saying its ok in their church to get different interpretations from the Bible. That is not what I was taught. Jesus said there was ONE way to reach heaven, and that was through him. At least thats what the church teaches. The ONE way. You cannot differ from this perspective if you want to survive in the church. What I think the author of this particular passage meant to say is from the first person for ALL people.

"I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one can enter the kingdom of heaven except through ME."

From the first person point of view for all people, this would mean that WE are the way, the truth, and the life, and that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven before going through ME (ourselves). This matches what Paul said in his letters to the Corinthians when he speaks of the "inner man" or "inner being." The Great I AM. The Great WE ARE.

All questions I had growing up in the church that were challenging in any way to the thought processes of the church leaders was quickly shut down. I left. I was told I was going to burn. I laughed and told them I was going to fly.

[BigCheese]

Now that I've quote Fred Durst, I'm going to go edit my post. :D

But yeah, that's the core idea, the stuff about Jesus dying, rising again on the 3rd day so you'll be with him in heaven if you believe in him. That's the core idea I was talking about. And I still believe you can discover stuff for yourself, even being a Christian for the reasons explained before.

And what I meant by that "NOT reject" thing is many people just hear an authority figure, and they reject it without even really fully listening to them, simply for the fact that they are an authority figure, which isn't questioning, it's rejecting.

[BigCheese]

BTW, this message sucks:

"The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 1440 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message. "

:(

[paraflux]

So you will forever be in agreeance and in the same company as Durst. You lose!

[The_Outsider]

So far in skimming through this post I have to say that I agree with everything that Paraflux has said, i think I'll add to it in saying this; all of you have turned this into a debate about the relationship between Schism and christianity, well consider this Maynard seems to come across on a similar level to Paraflux and myself, he is an atheist? and views christianity as a blind faith, "Fuck your god, your lord, your christ..." - quoted from the song 'Judith' by APC however, this does not mean that Atheists disbelieve in God entirely, rather it means they can live spiritually and follow their own path as they see fit, without having to be limited by the flock, watched by the shephard as such - all the same i'm losing track here, the point is, would a person like this, like myself, write a song like this, SPECIFICALLY about Christianity? I think not. HOWEVER, the point is that these songs, these creations that tool has devised, can be taken in many, different ways, the possibilities are endless, its just that the interpretation, is up to you, the fact that this song implies a Seperation, is BLATANTLY, blatantly obvious, but all the same, if you think of the term "Seperation" or "Schism" it is a very broad term, and could apply to anything, essentially what i'm saying throughout this is that I am sensing a certain narrow minded, black and white influence seeping in here, we've heard the religious debate over and over thousands of time, spiral out! lets hear something completely different, has anyone a spin that can bring some colour into this fray?

[Beholder]

If Christ didn't create Christianity then who did?

Does christianity have to have a specific date of birth? When asking this do you refer to christianity as a whole? Or one specific demoniation which holds itself to the only truth over the others?

Christianity is a series of interpretation over a period of two thousand years. It has not had the same meaning over that time by any stretch of the imagination. The bible was not even set until hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

The words of Christ can be seen as seeking followers. But his words take new meanings as a person grows and reads the same thing over again.

You can even take Schism as an example of this. To those struggling with religion it can be religious. If you are struggling with divorce, or loss of life, or any major change you will have a different interpretation.



Ask yourself, does someone have to create christianity? Can you bear to believe in something that is not stable over time?

[MrMcPheezy]

I'm not going to say anything, paraflux. Just for you.

[paraflux]

I'm not going to say anything, paraflux. Just for you.

Good because I got props all over this fucking thread.

Word.

[paraflux]

All religions are created one way or another, the most started with one person you know, people like Moses, Mohammed, Jesus, Budha, etc.... All other religions are seperations from the "mainstream" religions (Christianity, Islam, Jew, Budhism). Even things like sciencetology are based on mainstream religions. I could type a whole story on this things but I have to go back to work. Just one thing for now: If you believe, you must now what you believe and not be a sheep.

True prophets do not expect religions to be formed out of their life examples that they share with the world. Jesus might never have done what he did if he could have seen the way his words would be taken so literally and twisted around in translations. Hell, his whole life was a metaphor for what mankind was supposed to become. So it is the people who form the religions, the followers of these prophets.

"Foucalt's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco is an excellent book on the power of belief.