Religion?

[sxytoes]

This is quite possibly the most beautiful song done by Tool, except for Salival's version of Pushit. It brings me into a sense of extreme relaxation and helps me meditate. Religion though? Does this song really make you feel religious about Tool? Here's my thoughts...
I think that in spite of this song and others by tool, Tool fans are inclined to slam western religion for everything that it is worth. They'd slam eastern religions as well, but Tool tends not to speak as much on them, which brings us to my point.
It seems as though many of you are hypocrites by accident. Tool has a very arrogant and biased point of view towards religion. I'm far from a religious man and tend to see that, I hope I'm not the only one without Maynard's previous words covering their eyes. As much as I respect him, I have to disrespect him for how he tends to lash out against religion, in particular, Christianity. It's not so much his fault, as it is some of the fans, in that we are so willing to believe everything that he says, because he is so intelligent(and I do think he deserves quite a bit of respect, despite what I am typing.). I hope other people notice that he neglects to comment on Eastern religions, or nearly anything outside of Christianity. It's like Christianity is the great evil he tries to paint a picture of. Much like George W. Bush talking about the Middle East. It's okay to neglect the flaws in the arguements so long as a person can establish themselves as right, am I not right? I don't think I am right. This sounds more like the same problems Maynard has with the Christian church, is that people follow them without examining the flaws in the arguements.
Religion and beliefs aren't necessarily stupid at al. They allow us to function and act in a world that obviously requires these things. If you believe that religion and beliefs will fuck up your perception and make you blind, then that's your religion and belief that makes you fucking blind. From that philosophy, we are never fully percieving reality, but always blind.
So before you go off slamming Christianity, and following with your lips pressed against Tool's words, remember the rationalizing I attempted here. Remember that a religious person may have good reason for why they believe in something, and you are far from righ to be able to criticize them, just because you believe that you have better ideas, beliefs, whatever the fuck you call them. If you want to do Tool a favor, don't be a blind sheep by doing what Tool asks you to do and go around claiming that you're not a blind sheep. Do your own research, and make sure that you balance in out with both arguements in a very open state of mind. Decide for yourself, think for yourself. Don't leave yourself in some vunerable state right before somebody inserts an opinion and then go around like a poser following it. It might be true that we have no CML(Concious mental life), but I'd perfer to believe that wrong and like Rush, "I choose freewill."

[AsproClear]

Just wondering which of Maynard's 'anti-christian' sentiments you are referring to?

[sxytoes]

Depends on where you would like to start.
I would love to start with Opiate. This song is derived from the quote by Karl Marx, "Religion is opiate to the masses." However, the song focuses so hard on Christianity and not other religions. "Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now? Open my eyes, blind me with your light now. [...] My God's Will," is a specific example of how he isolates Christianity as the ultimate religion we should be against. Not only does it point towards Jesus Christ, but also towards monotheism by saying my God, not pointing out any other gods, while there are still religions practiced today that are not monotheistic.
Then we can move to the last track of Undertow where he is specifically pointing out Christianity by statements such as, "amen", "reverend", and using the noise of lambs, which points to the old testament concept of a shepherd(their God) and its flock of sheep or lambs.
In Eulogy off of Æniema, the idea of being a martyr for your belief is for all intents and purposes made a joke of. Now, I'm sure we can go back and point out many other beliefs that martyrs have died for, so why just the reference about the cross?
On the sleeve of Lateralus, if you flip a few pages, you see "GOD" scribbled on the human brain. This seems to point out an idea that God is all in our heads or that we tend to make him up, or that we are God. Again, this points to the concept of monotheism, which is not present in all modern religions.
Lastly,
in a recent article in some magazine I was just flipping through in a grocery store, I read an interview with Maynard. I don't know how recent this really is or what the magazine is called, I just know it was an interview and it was relatively recent. Maynard points out his belief that religion is bad and spirituality is good, to summarize his point. However, he speaks mainly again about Christianity.

Is Tool attacking religion or are they attacking Christianity? If I were to use any insight at all, I would say this is a subconscious, psychological battle against Christianity, a crusade in metaphor, to gain the holy position against the Heathen fools(Christians).

[lonely_host]

"beliefs are dangerous"

[sxytoes]

Beliefs are both a danger and comfort, much like everything else in this world. It usually goes back to the two main cosmic forces working against each other that give us what is this wonderful and horrifying reality.

[The Fugue]

I dont agree with you.You say that Maynard or rather Tool
lash out against christianity and not against other religions(eastern) as well.I find this quite normal.
When you live in a christian society,the "rules" of christian god apply,even only theoretical.The whole structure of society or a big part of it is based to these christian beliefs.
So when i or Tool disagree with it,its logical that i will turn against christianity.I have a problem with all faiths because they only make people fanatical,cynical.But in particular i turn against the christian god,bacause i live in a christian country.It is quite simple,actually!

As for the necessity of religion in our world,allow me to have a few doubts.In a world like ours today,where technology advances so rapidly there is little room for religion.If you
think about it you will realise that the only thing science has not yet decoded is Death.Through religion people tried to explain everything they didnt understand.Now that human reason has explained almost everything about our natural world,what is left to religion or the church more likely?The one thing all men fear,death.They use this fear to continue to manipulate masses as they have done for milleniums...

[sxytoes]

You haven't considered that science isn't a religion then...
All beliefs are faiths, and all religion is, is organized faith. If it is a belief that science does decode these things, then science must in fact, be a religion.

[The Fugue]

Actually i have considered what you say.I understand that science has in a way
become a religion these days.Peoplefollow it like sheeps just like theydo with any god.That is alsofrightening.Meaning that instead of changing things we simply replace our deities.
What i mean is that i "believe",trust,have faith(?)- name it what you like- in human reason.This reason has brought us this far and it's the only thing that can take us even further.
To explore more and more the possibilities of man through reason and experimenting,without any god or religion to hold us back.We may just go where no one's been....Spiral out.

[paraflux]

I think Christianity gets what it deserves from its ex-members. About your statement concerning eastern philosophies and why Maynard doesnt bash them... Maynard doesnt bash Christianity as a way to live. He bashes what Christians have done to this belief system. It has become a mockery of life itself. I lived the life for 18 years, and today, it is way too much to impose on kids growing up in this age. Keeping kids sheltered from the harm in todays world only makes them that much less ready to tackle it when they leave home. Jesus spent his entire ministry overturning what the pharisees were saying. I see today's christians as pharisees. They argue over petty literal issues, they divide and split, they are hypocrites in the purest sense of the word. They believe what their particular preacher tells them, and if they dont like what he has to say they fire him or split the church in half or go somewhere where the preacher is saying things that fit inside their own little reality. Then they say that Christianity is the only way. Eastern Philosophies never say that their way is the only way. They ccept the fact that other philosophies say the same basic thing. Why bash that? That's all I would ask for, is a little courtesy and not being told I am hellbound because I dont worship the idea of God that Christians have. Opiate is for what christianity has become. I don't think maynard has any hatred for Jesus or God, just the ideas that people in Christianity have degraded those characters into. I see nothing wrong with that. And he doesnt really bash them as much as he just mocks it. It's rather funny.

Now I want to address the statement you made that beliefs are not dangerous, but in fact beneficial. How in the hell is that possible? If you have a belief, you are closed to anything else that goes against that belief. Not only are you closed, but you might not even be aware that your belief just shot down that particular idea. For decades people believed the Earth was flat. That was their truth, that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. When a few people countered this belief, it was, of course, considered absurd and even blasphemous. Those few people were killed, or threatened with death if they didnt retract their statements, were excommunicated, and otherwise persecuted. When people finally accepted that the Earth was round and revolved around the sun, the truth changed. But because they believed so strongly that the Earth was flat, people were killed. Fuck that. If you hold no beliefs and base your life on experiences and knowledge and intuition, you will probably find that it is a lot easier to accept new truth than if you have beliefs. Think about this. What is Faith? It is defined in the Bible has the hope of things unseen. Why do you need to hope in something once youve seen those things that were previously unseen? You don't, you experienced those things and faith is worthless because you have direct knowledge of those things.

Eastern Philosophies are not really belief systems. That's why I refuse to call Hinduism or Buddhism religions. They are ideas to live by, which was all Jesus intended Christianity to be, not to spawn countless years of war over what he came here to say because other people dont agree with it. And that's why I think Maynard leaves the Eastern Philosophies alone, because they dont try to tell people what to do, and they are a lot older than Christianity and have a lot more solid background in sacred spiritual matters.

[preacher]

Originally posted by paraflux
I think Christianity gets what it deserves from its ex-members. About your statement concerning eastern philosophies and why Maynard doesnt bash them... Maynard doesnt bash Christianity as a way to live. He bashes what Christians have done to this belief system. It has become a mockery of life itself. I lived the life for 18 years, and today, it is way too much to impose on kids growing up in this age. Keeping kids sheltered from the harm in todays world only makes them that much less ready to tackle it when they leave home. Jesus spent his entire ministry overturning what the pharisees were saying. I see today's christians as pharisees. They argue over petty literal issues, they divide and split, they are hypocrites in the purest sense of the word. They believe what their particular preacher tells them, and if they dont like what he has to say they fire him or split the church in half or go somewhere where the preacher is saying things that fit inside their own little reality. Then they say that Christianity is the only way. Eastern Philosophies never say that their way is the only way. They ccept the fact that other philosophies say the same basic thing. Why bash that? That's all I would ask for, is a little courtesy and not being told I am hellbound because I dont worship the idea of God that Christians have. Opiate is for what christianity has become. I don't think maynard has any hatred for Jesus or God, just the ideas that people in Christianity have degraded those characters into. I see nothing wrong with that. And he doesnt really bash them as much as he just mocks it. It's rather funny.

Now I want to address the statement you made that beliefs are not dangerous, but in fact beneficial. How in the hell is that possible? If you have a belief, you are closed to anything else that goes against that belief. Not only are you closed, but you might not even be aware that your belief just shot down that particular idea. For decades people believed the Earth was flat. That was their truth, that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. When a few people countered this belief, it was, of course, considered absurd and even blasphemous. Those few people were killed, or threatened with death if they didnt retract their statements, were excommunicated, and otherwise persecuted. When people finally accepted that the Earth was round and revolved around the sun, the truth changed. But because they believed so strongly that the Earth was flat, people were killed. Fuck that. If you hold no beliefs and base your life on experiences and knowledge and intuition, you will probably find that it is a lot easier to accept new truth than if you have beliefs. Think about this. What is Faith? It is defined in the Bible has the hope of things unseen. Why do you need to hope in something once youve seen those things that were previously unseen? You don't, you experienced those things and faith is worthless because you have direct knowledge of those things.

Eastern Philosophies are not really belief systems. That's why I refuse to call Hinduism or Buddhism religions. They are ideas to live by, which was all Jesus intended Christianity to be, not to spawn countless years of war over what he came here to say because other people dont agree with it. And that's why I think Maynard leaves the Eastern Philosophies alone, because they dont try to tell people what to do, and they are a lot older than Christianity and have a lot more solid background in sacred spiritual matters.


Nuff Said, Amen Brother!!!

[IrisoftheShadow]

Through his songs, I always figured Maynard was not technically critcizing all aspects of Christianity, rather blind faith in orthodox religion; which can also been seen in the A Perfect Circle song "Judith". Many people consider themselves Christians because they have been told do so since their youth. Knowing Maynard and Tool, they always encourage their fans to think for themselves.
I remember reading an interview of Maynard and the interviewer asked why he tends to criticize God. And he saracastically said (and I'm paraphrasing), "I never said anything malicious about Michael Jordan." I don't think Maynard is much of an anarchist against the Christian God, or any God for that matter. He probably just dislikes organizied religion because most of the followers are blind sheep.
But I guess it's true though, no one has the true right to criticize those who blindly believe in a God. If they choose to believe in a godso desperately , then let them. No matter how much any Tool fan, or anybody for that matter criticizes those blind sheep, it's not going to change their beliefs.
REMEMBER, people!, religion is based on opinion. If any religion was based on facts, then there would be only one religion and everyone would believe it.

[Kostia]

THAT is a reason to amen. Thanks for thinking.

I will willingly tell all of you that I AM a Christian AND a BIG fan of Tool. You may not think it's possible, or may think I'm a hypocrite or something, whatever, I disagree, and this is the opinion section right?

Don't believe that I immediately disagree with people like Paraflux when they talk about what has happened in Christianity, through the church, to really screw it up. The Bible actually talks a lot about how there will be more and more hypocrites over time who make Christ's followers look like complete idiots.

It's hard for us to really know Tool's true thoughts on Christianity. On that weird Toology video I got for Christmas (don't buy it...) there was a quote of Maynard's at a concert, "Are you here to worship Jesus?" [crowd roars] "Well, you've come to the wrong place." That has several implications but it doesn't mean they're all true. Maybe it's just back to blind faith.

I'd hope to point out that what the Vatican, a preacher, or anyone else does or says about it won't define what Christianity truly means to you unless you discover it personally. If you really want to understand Christianity, read a book called the Bible. Then read stuff that talks about why the Bible is wrong, and then about why it is right. Once you understand the fundamentals, then you have the right to judge the beliefs themselves.

Sad though that in a country where whites can't say anything about blacks, nor anyone anything about Arabs, even in jest (re: Hush), I as a Christian am often and very openly mocked--for not swearing and for trying hard to bring other people up while living a good life in the process. It isn't easy.

The initiator of this post was a little off, because my religion does have its long history faults. But my beliefs, on the other hand, are spotless, and that's what I would point you to.

My opinion... in the opinion section.

[paraflux]

I'm not trying to knock heads with you, brother. Everybody honestly searching is where they are for a reason. I'm just explaining where I am. Stand by your intuition, which it is apparent that you are and will. I have encouragement for you, as I would hope you would have for me. I know we will meet after wandering through our destinations in life and see the unity of our thoughts. That process I have defined (only because I didn't know a word for it) as a paraflux.

[Narcissus]

You know, The thought that Maynard doesn't "Bash" on Eastern Religions is a joke. I say this because Maynard doesnt REALLY bash on any religion. Its all in how you interpret and "Think for Yourself". Lets think about the fact that The outside plastic casing thing over the box for Salival has an inverted Tree of Life overlapping the human body. Technically, the Tree of Life can be put on the body in the correct manner, with the different Sephira corresponding to certain parts. The orb of Keter or the Crown stands for pure unadultered energy, from which All things spawn. The fact that he has it inverted on the body could be his little jest at the principles of that school of thought by putting the holiest of energies near the crotch.

Also there is the fact that science can't account for everything, such as where the Universe came from. The closest we can get is that it spawned from Pure Energy which can neither be created Nor Destroyed. But then, where did that energy come from?

So you see, there is a place for both Science and Religion to work hand in hand. As far as I can tell, the only reasons Maynard focuses (and by focuses, I dont mean bashes) on Chrisianity are:

1. Its popular, and just about everyone knows about it, so it would be easy to prove a point about corruption in religion by using it. and...

2.Because Christianity in particular was indeed quite corrupt not too far long after its conception.

Remember, Dont think of it as bashing..think of it as a way for Maynard to spread his views about a civilization lost in the presentation of the message, and not the message itself.

[Nirvana]

perfect!

[paraflux]

bad choice of words on my part. good job.

[atrandom]

There is also a possibility that Tool does comment on Eastern Religions. Perhaps we are the narrow-minded ones who have missed this because of our limited knowledge of Eastern culture. I'm sure that many of their songs make references to things that I would not notice without them being pointed out to me and none of us can prove that these do not address this subject, especially given Tool's reputation for cryptic lyrics.
I think that Iris' statement about science being based on fact would be ideally true but is not. Within the scientific community there has always been disagreement and most scientists believe what they themselves have produced rather than what is based on the most logic. Even facts are limited in their ability to reveal the whole truth. Relativity is full of examples of two observers seeing the same occurence at different times and at different points in space. Opinions and direct observation will always be dependant on one's reference frame. The advantage that science has over religion is its ability to change and evolve (I think this was touched on earlier). The theory that there is a creator will always be a plausible one, but to give your live to a theory that is not provable would be to me a waste of time. I even find it hard to believe that there are true believers. When I meet a person who has thoroughly read the entire Bible without being paid for his religious or educational services then I will change that assumption. But to those who use Christianity or any other belief system as an excuse to stop searching for truth and meaning I hold you responsible for every failure and shortcoming of science.

[pitifulanonymos]

i am a christian too and i love tool. i know where you guys are coming from but i dont feel maynard is bashing christianity so much as trying to make the fans think about it for a second. i think that one who questions their faith is made stronger by it. that as opposed to swallowing every word their preacher says which form my experience is always bull shit. i think it is wrong to say that christianity and christians are hypocritical. a christian is someone who is a sinner and believes that jesus will forgive them for it. if you became a christian and never sinned again you wouldn’t have any more need for christ. i for one also hate organised religion and thats not what christianity is supposed to be. its not even supposed to be religion. it is a relationship with God. the church is not a building, it is in your heart. in the bible it says that the kingdom of god is inside you, which may or may not explain why the brain in lateralus has GOD written in it. its not so much the sheep that follow god blindly is the sheep that only read their bible in church when the preacher tells them to look up a passage and follow. that is what i hate. if you can get around that and just read the a few short passages from the bible before you go to sleep you may find it is actually really relaxing and enjoyable. i for one don\t get all this conversion crap. going around tell the world that this is how you should live and this is what you must believe. its not how its supposed to be. christians are meant to convert by example, if you live your life for christ then people will see it and wonder how you do it. they ask, you tell. all this harassing people and alienating people is just stupid, it has the reverse effect on people.

not very well thought out i know, sorry

thepitifulanonymos

[AnemicRoyalty]

hasn't anyone seen Dogma. Beliefs are dangerous, just have an idea. like i have an idea that there is a god. saying you have an idea still lets you still be open minded

[paraflux]

Originally posted by pitifulanonymos
i am a christian too and i love tool. i know where you guys are coming from but i dont feel maynard is bashing christianity so much as trying to make the fans think about it for a second. i think that one who questions their faith is made stronger by it. that as opposed to swallowing every word their preacher says which form my experience is always bull shit. i think it is wrong to say that christianity and christians are hypocritical. a christian is someone who is a sinner and believes that jesus will forgive them for it. if you became a christian and never sinned again you wouldn’t have any more need for christ. i for one also hate organised religion and thats not what christianity is supposed to be. its not even supposed to be religion. it is a relationship with God. the church is not a building, it is in your heart. in the bible it says that the kingdom of god is inside you, which may or may not explain why the brain in lateralus has GOD written in it. its not so much the sheep that follow god blindly is the sheep that only read their bible in church when the preacher tells them to look up a passage and follow. that is what i hate. if you can get around that and just read the a few short passages from the bible before you go to sleep you may find it is actually really relaxing and enjoyable. i for one don\t get all this conversion crap. going around tell the world that this is how you should live and this is what you must believe. its not how its supposed to be. christians are meant to convert by example, if you live your life for christ then people will see it and wonder how you do it. they ask, you tell. all this harassing people and alienating people is just stupid, it has the reverse effect on people.

not very well thought out i know, sorry

thepitifulanonymos


I have encouragement for people who think their posts are not well thought out, or that they think they dont know what they are talking about.

You may say that it is wrong to call christians hypocrits, but I do not. I have met SOOOOOO many who arent blind to their hypocrisy, they just simply keep it up because for some reason its how they want to live. they want to live a lie because its easier than dealing with fear. I dont care how many christians you find who are not hypocrites, I could name 5 for every one that are. The aspect of hypocrisy is the same as it was in Jesus' time. He spent his ministry defending himself from the pharisees and talked about how hypocritical they were. and the bible does an excellent job pointing out these hypocrises. why cant we see that it is the same today? surely they had SOME decent pharisees back in the day, they were just outnumbered. Same as today. the decent christians are outnumbered by the hypocrits. and I'm sorry, a person who willingly "sins" all week long and repents on sunday is a hypocrit. a person who proudly displays his religion (not spirituality) by praying loudly or preaching that others will burn is a hypocrit. a person who points out the splinter in his brother's spiritual life without removing the 2 x 4 from his own is a hypocrit.

Yes, the kingdom of God is inside you. But thats not what churches teach. They teach that the Kingdom of God is external, a place of dwelling that we ascend to IF we are good little boys and girls. They teach that God is a being who rules this place. They dont teach that we have the power of Christ (God) within us, that we can have what christ had and be what he was. That we create our own version of heaven when we realize we have this ability, or else we stay in this mundane existence, this evolutionary cul-de-sac until we realize we are all a part of what we call God. We are, after all, made in his image.

There are, I'm sure, decent qualities to christianity. but living in it for 18 years taught me that for me, there was way too much pettiness and bullshit for anything of great importance to get discussed, much less accomplished. I daresay there is more hatred (FOR OTHER MEMBERS OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!) in the church than outside of it.

we have church within us. we have so much power that we cant remember it until we are ready to accept that responsibility.