Okay, a few people asked, so I will type my thoughts then copy and paste. ..

And I will try to start a thread somewhere because I'm pretentious.

(Already Submitted this in Live forums but I think it got DENIED. Trying again Here)

I will probably be a little wordy, so dismiss at your own leisure. Also, I'm not looking to argue but if you believe I am stupid or silly, let me know. I can take it. Also, I am new to these forums so if this has been said before then the same applies, dismiss, tell me I'm stupid or silly, and let me know this is old news.

I was admittedly a few years late in the "Interpreting 10000 days game". I wasn't fond of The Pot or Jambi or Vicarious when they FIRST came on the radio and I had been into other genres of music for awhile so I didn't even buy the album till like 6 months ago. But I rode along with Undertow, Aenima, and Lateralus as they happened.

I will get to the current tour, I promise. But I think There is a reason the setlist is just about the same. (a good Tool Fan isn't a good Tool fan unless he/she is trying to read into EVERYTHING)

We all know 10000 days is the story of Maynard James's mother Judith Marie, who passed away after some unimaginably major suffering for 27 years. We all know Maynard used to question her faith. And We can tell from the song 10000 days that he was finally inspired by her ceaseless faith in her final days.

I am thinking,further than that, that the Parabola/Lateralus/Reflection philosophy of Maynard's encountered a major fallacy when it came to Judith Marie. Being a “celebrate-this-chance-to-be-a-spiral-swinging-divine-DNA-part-of-the-collective-mind-happy-to-be-alive-human-being” isn't very helpful advice to someone in her condition.

(maybe you can already see where I'm going)
I think 10000 days in its entirety is a retraction and a refutal of Lateralus and Aenima.

Her Faith though, proved FAR more powerful. I'm not saying he adopted Christianity, I don't think he did but it's possible, but I do believe he abandoned the Lateralus Philosophy. On to the concert's playlist: I will try to be as scatterbrained as I can.

Jambi I have read many interpretations of, most involving son, and there may well be documentation of an interview where he said it was about his son. But is it really like Maynard to just tell us what a song is about? I'll try to stay brief, but I think it's MAINLY about the divide between Maynard (the rock star, the icon, the guy who thinks deep and writes lyrics that millions of people look to for inspiration) and Jimmy (the regular guy, the son, the father, the same as the rest of us people) I think by Lateralus, Maynard had become so deep (“up to the neck”) in finding a personal philosophy that he nearly drowned. His final days with his mother (and the previously mentioned shattering of Laterus Enlightenment) made him realize he was rrrrrrrrrrrrreal fuckin' close to losing his Jimmy. [side note, I think it's possible that the title, besides referring to the iambic meter, indeed refers to PeeWee's genie, and was chosen because it shares the first three letters with James and there's already a song called Jimmy]
Well now he wants to wish away Lateralus and Aenima [another side note, he grew back his Undertow Mohawk. And in the album photo, his Bald “Aenima/Lateralus” self is a reflection in the mirror, BEHIND Him]
Well He doesn't WANT to be deep anymore. He wants the Benevolent Sun to shine on the SURFACE of everything, and He would like Maynard and Jimmy to become one again. (they kinda need each other.)
Oh, and yeah The Legion is US. Us people who say, “You changed my life man!”, “You are like the new Jesus!”, “You got it all figured out!”, “Thank You!”, Those 'affirmations' are now poisonous to him.

Okay, I won't do the whole setlist, but the important parts. The opening, the middle and the end. (the rest probably were the other bandmember's choices anyway)

Rosetta Stoned is Nothing More than a Mockery of Lateralus. It will take way less explanation to say that He is comparing Tool to the Grateful Dead (they have a Legion following them around on tour), He saying that he figured out something Epic and Enlightening (Lateralus Philosophy) while he was on drugs, but the only real result (after Mom passed) was a bed full of shit. He now wonders why he's a hero. And the one true answer that he has found is, that in the quest for truth or enlightenment, there is only ONE answer: We Don't Know, and We Won't Know.

Flood follows Rosetta Stoned, the mockery of Lateralus, with its message, [...insert EVERY SINGLE LINE of the song Flood HERE...]

Now Lateralus is in the setlist probably because it is one of the favorites of The Legion, or Maynard got outvoted by the other guys to include it, but he'll be damned if they're going to end with that song. SO dress it up as a pop hit with some more lasers and a guest drummer, Put most of the focus on Adam, Justin, Doctor Octopus, er, Danny, and said Guest Drummer and get everyone cheering for their “enlightening song” (and its “oh how fantastic it is to be a human” message) But the set cannot end with that poison.

So Comes Vicarious. It gets a Great pop from the crowd, it was a hit, it was like one of the best guitar songs of all time or something, But MOST OF ALL It says CLEARLY that humanity sucks. We're still bloodthirsty savages, just admit it. I have a mohawk again. And end the show on that.

Same essential setlist as last time. But I don't think the Benevolent Sun is bringing Maynard and Jimmy back together. Maynard is stuck with Tool and the Legion. It's been two years, and maybe nothing is getting better. Jimmy needs to get off the poisonous stage before he withers. (I'd also like to add, And this probably is NOT relevant, that Adam, Justin, and Danny wore All White. Maynard was in black)

Besides, Puscifer is less deep and more fun. Same with the wine.

That's everything I have to say concerning the setlist and the current tour but on this, (again, I'm very possibly stupid and/or silly and that's cool but I like to be pretentious so I will add..)

On the way home from the show, with this on my mind, I listened to The Pot. I only first looked at the lyrics last week, I never liked the song enough to pay attention (I didn't think it was “deep” enough) but The Pot is a 3 way reference (I'm sure this has PROBABLY been said in the forums before, don't care.) (first two, Hypocrist expression and Ganja, Please) The Third reference is Yage/Ayahuasca. The DMT drink. It looks JUST like MUDDY WATER. You brew it in a POT. And you have to squeeze LEMONS into it while you brew it. I think this Song is sung BY 10000 days-Jimmy TO Lateralis-Maynard.

Your thoughts are very insightful. I don't think they are silly or stupid. The beauty of TOOL and MJK are the complexity of the lyrics, all the layered meanings. I don't think anyone other than MJK will ever know the true meaning of any of thier work. I do agree with you on many points here. I think he has changed since the passing of his mother. If you visit his website for his vineyards you will see someone so much softer.

Do I think he was "off" last night? Yes, it was sad. But that is Maynard never the same per se.

wait, what?

What do you think is Lateralus Philosophy?

I dont really see this poisonous thing claimed here. Actually, I can see the total opposite. In different messages I have understood the positive and change minded attitude towards healing and better state.

"I am standing on a metaphorical plateau. The view from here suggests that I/we still have many mountains to negotiate. It has already been a long journey. But the successes and failures have been in balance. Which would suggest that I/we have chosen the correct path. I hold in my hands the evidence to support this statement. It was a shot in the dark. A shot preceded (and continually followed even as we speak) by doubt, resistance to change, fear, hostility, and jealousy by a vocal minority. But a shot also surrounded by love, light, support, intrigue, joy, patience, and faith by those who truly understand passion and will. With tears in my eyes, I present to you the very first 100% Arizona Caduceus wine. Nagual del JUDITH, named after my late mother, Judith Marie, whose ashes are spread across this Northern Arizona vineyard. These vines and wines are her resurrection and her wings."

I dont really see the contradiction with Lateralus and Rosetta Stoned.
By my logic then Flood's message should go against Rosetta Stoned instead of Lateralus :)

Though I did not think the setlist has any meaning. It might have - i dont know.

Oh man, cheer up :)

"Humanity sucks" kinda limits the possibilities? Saying people are bloodthirsty savages does not necessarily mean people suck, but that people are bloodthirsty savages.
Thats interesting - The Pot thing.

You definitely make some good points and I see where you're going with this. I won't comment on particular points individually but I will say that the "hopeful" Maynard that was so inspired and grateful to be "alive and breathing" during the "Lateralus" era has been beaten down. The general message of the "10,000 Days" (as examplified by "Vicarious" and "Intension/Right In Two") is that we have failed to turn over a new leaf as humanity has kinda let him (and ourselves) down. In the all Tool edition of Revolver there is this note about "10,000 Days":

"All joking aside, Keenan says the album reflects the increasing disillusionment he's felt in the wake of George W. Bush's re-election, and his frustration with what he sees as an American populace that seems unwilling-despite a steady stream of scandals and screw-ups-to get off their collective asses and drive Bush and his corrupt cronies out of Washington." -That's on page 79 of that Revolver issue.

So to reiterate, he just is fed up with his message(s) of hope being ignored and is kind of just like "we tried to warn you, but you didn't listen"...possibly dancing in quicksand a la "Swamp Song"...which just happened to get played in 2006.

I'm not sure that the actual structure of the set list has anything to do with sending a message per se. "Flood" was brought out of mothballs at the Greenville, S.C. show back in 2007. According to a post from that time, if I recall correctly, Junior mentioned that Justin was meddlinng with that song at soundcheck and they decided to go for it that night, et al. To expand on set list structure, I think that "Lateralus" is no longer the closer because they don't want the song to be their "Freebird". And I agree, "Ænema" and "Vicarious" are closers that are a little closer to the band's new-found disillusionment with humanity.

Songs that were played in 2006 and 2007 (other than "10,000 Days'' songs) include "The Patient", "Swamp Song", "Opiate", "Sober"and "Pushit". This of course isn't mentioning all the songs that are still currently being played to date, i.e. "Stinkfist", "46&2", etc., etc.

"The Patient" seems relevant if you take its meaning to be that of trying to "reap the rewards" of being an artist whose "tedious path" has so many tribulations. Seems like this could be a knock at the record industry after the band's legal battle with their label in 1998. Still relevant today.

"Swamp Song" I talked about earlier on so fuck repetition, repetition, repetition...

"Opiate" goes back to Maynard's disillusionment with organized religion and how it is the "opiate of the masses". Seems to conflict with his possible Chrisitianity, eh?

"Sober" is "Sober". Will always be played on any given tour.

"Pushit" is open to interpretation (as every song is, really) more so than most songs. It seems to be about some kind of harmful relationship. At one show, that was in Philadelphia in November 23, 1996, Maynard said something to the effect of, "Ever have someone love you so much that they tried to kill you? Or perhaps suck you down into a hole? And you had to kill them to get away? Me either." So how this fits into the current attitude of the band is anyone's guess.

Here's the link to that info:

http://www.collectiveunconscious.org...96dates96.html

So, I guess I've rambled on, eh? To sum up, I agree with a lot of what you've mentioned I just think that the set list order and the songs on it aren't really set up to convey a particular message in such a clinical way. I think they just like what they're playing and aren't ready to change it yet.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I find your thoughts on "The Pot" to be fascinating.

You forgot to mention the fact that Maynard also refrains from singing the end of Vicarious, thereby making everyone in the entire Legion admit, "vicariously I live while the whole world dies, much better you than I."

However, this could be because of the deterioration of his voice, which I think it is. I also think you're way off base, but it was interesting to read.

Wow Guys. I braced myself for an immediate inferno. The worst I got was "You're way off base" and even THAT was said in a polite way. Unless of course the flames are of the Natural Gas Powered, "Cozened Indigo" variety, and I'm not mindful enough to feel their burn ;) (J/k) ... (about the winking emoticon)

Anyway, I started typing that with the intent of sending it to a few private messages but when It got half as long as it is, well my ego kicked in and I said fuck it. I will share. I have no bibliograhy, and All of my opinions are based upon intuition, observation, and my own experiences with changing philosophys and encountering "fallacies" when you think you've found truth or enlightenment. (and maybe a bunch of drugs) (maybe)

I do appreciate the feedback, and discussion. I really enjoy reading your perspectives on my recent "formulation" (fabrication?) I'll tell you now, I have no rebuttals. None. And I won't. :)


(I think I might love you guys. Too soon?)



I had an original thread???
***slaps forehead***
"fuuuuuuuuuuuck....."

Again, I'm like you Boobah, I think we are reading WAAAAY too far into this because we go to see a BAND play not gods and we as fans HAVE treated them like gods for over a decade now and WE as fans forget they are human! I will say I truly enjoy reading others thoughts on interpretation and the like and I think you were pretty damn close on a lot of the points and I hope the band reads these and get a kick out of us "chatting" about this type of stuff.(In a good way of course). You made my morning drive to Charlotte that much better after Atlanta's performance. I now am VERY excited again to be seeing them play, so "Thank You" Boobah for YOUR thoughts and as always, they will put on a stellar show.................AGAIN!!

I pretty much disagree with nearly everything you said, Boobah. But, you're entitled to your opinion and your individual interpretation as much as anyone. That's the beauty of Maynard's lyrical ability, they can be interpreted in any way, and above all, they make you think. What I like about your post is that you don't proclaim your opinion to be the gospel truth, then try to pre-empt the backlash by calling anyone who doesn't agree stupid. I've seen so many morons try to pull that shit, as if they're on some sort of imaginary higher ground. It's always fun to watch people like that get shot down and put in their place, but in your case here, you're just sharing a humble opinion.

The most important aspect of any of Tool's messages, IMO, is the fact that no matter what, if you get something out of it, you had to think hard about it first, and that's all that really matters. Not many other bands, if any, really have this type of effect on their fans.

I think its safe to assume that Lateralus has to do with reaching enlightenment through spiritual means, not drug use.

Adam Jones said in an interview (sorry, dont remember which) that Rosetta Stoned is about someone attempting reaching a false sense of enlightenment through drug use.

Two very different songs with very different meanings in my opinion.

i agree with almost everything you said boobah. Maynard puts many layers into his lyrics. Another interesting point is that in the song 10000 days, maynard states

"Listen to the tales and romanticize...How we'd follow the path of the hero (maynard). Boast about the day when the rivers overrun (aenema) How we rise to the height of our halo (Lateralus)"

So the beliefs of religious folks are no different than his beliefs about the apocalypse (even though its a metaphor) and the belief in the divinity of humanity.


Also, Right in Two ends with Maynard repeatedly saying 'right in two, right in two' after the chorus states "gotta divide it all right in two". I have always interpreted this as him realizing that it is right in two. Unity/collective/oneness is an illusion to him now. Divide. seperation of maynard from the rest of the world/fans. Its like he is choosing to cross the bridge and he is gonna take with him those who he loves and really cares about as well as those who are on the same page as him. The rest can go fuck themselves. 'the universe is hostile, so impersonal"

great post booboo

I think placing Maynard in the position of a 'hero' would be the farthest thing from his intention with those lyrics.

WOWWW ... Like I stated, I have only fairly recently wandered into this album but I just (after reading your excerpt) listened and read along to 10000 days and it's ALL there... "rationalize our way to the arms of the saviour", "enough .. collective Judas. ..You illuminated Your Piece of the Divine", "set in my ways and my arrogance, you were my witness ... Judith Marie, Unconditional One" (a contrast to HIS evolving, changing beliefs that needed to find ways to adapt to survive) I admit, I haven't spent nearly enough time with this song.

It wasn't necessarily Christianity that was inspirational to him. It was that she was the Unconditional Pillar of Pure Faith.

Yeah I agree with a lot of that, or at least all of those points could be very close to what the actual meaning is.

The hero is more of the narrator or the protagonist who is the teller of tales in Tool's music. Maynard isnt saying he's the hero but merely the protagonist.

i keep finding new things about this album every time i look into it. This makes me want to look more into undertow and aenima, assuming they were created with the same artistic and incredible depth. This makes me love 10000 days even more.

and fuckoff all of you who say im overanalyzing. There music is meant to analyzed. just not past the point of where you forget the feeling you get when listening.

hopefully we can generate some more opinions on this album and its purpose

I took "hero" here in the same context as it is at the end of Rosetta Stoned, "can't remember what they said to make me out to be the hero", also, (in my own interpretation,) 10000 days, being about Judith Marie, is sung By her son Jimmy, not Rock Star Maynard (like I hypothesized with Jambi, maybe Maynard and Jimmy are divided now) This might also be another way to hear "Right in Two". (another song where the word "divided" is used)

Remember, "Maynard" IS a made-up stage name.

Maynard is a nickname given to him while in the service.

This thread is probably one of the best 10kd threads. I really like alot of your ideas boobah and lateralreallofus. You've made me look at this album with a fresh perspective.

Great thread!

I already presented this idea three years ago when the album first came out
Is 10,000 Days Tool's way of saying "Let us correct ourselves"?, but you took it even further.

That's a great thread as well!

I had started getting these impressions a few months back when I started listening to 10000 days (years after its release) and they became stronger as I listened closer in the days before the concert I attended. Of course I read the reviews of the previous shows in the tour and noticed people complaining that the setlist began and ended the same way, and other bands change it up, in many cases every night. Tool has a a lot of hits and a HUUGE library of other songs that the fans just love, but the setlist kept it's key elements (beginning, middle, end) and the order of songs (ESPECIALLY Flood after Rosetta Stoned) only corroborated my suspicions. As well as Maynard's behaviour on stage, another element people have been complaining about the entire tour (and blaming flashbulbs and laser pointers, Something ANY 20 year veteran performer would be accustomed to)

As I have continued to listen to 10000 days I think that there may be a constant context for certain terms and ideas, for example "Divide", anything concerning "Hippies", Hypocrites, "Angels", "Hero" (as mentioned in maybe my last post)

A few more Ideas also that even I think Might be a little TOO out there to post, but I will admit that I have a feeling "Viginti Tres" is an audio-representation of that "inner journey"

Of course, I have NOT gone through all the threads (and quite honestly, too lazy to do that), and like I said in the First post, a lot of this is Old News, You saw it 3 years ago :)

Also, I know I said I would have no rebuttals, and I won't (for the people who disagree) and I still am not claiming to stand behind this idea with 100% certainty,

BUT

Some of you guys (no fingers from me) are posting things that SUPPORT this idea in your arguments against it...

I also want to add- The reason it took me so long to listen to 10000 days. I had already found my way out of my own "hippie haze" prior to its release. I did not think I would be able to enjoy Tool if I didn't want to think that way anymore. Little did I realize it had been somewhat reflective of my own "retraction/refutal" the whole time! Yeah, That is a self absorbed thing to say, but it's my real excuse. I hope I have been humble enough in other declarations for that one to retain some credibility.

Oh, this is something I thought about earlier tonight. (btw even LESS certain of this one than everything else, so this one I am just "throwing out there")(because I admit, it's "out there" already)

concerning "Right in Two"

It might be introspective AS WELL as a commentary on the human species

After all, (I hope this is old news) "Stinkfist" is the same song as "46 & 2", (finding satisfaction/enlightenment by reaching as far as you can where the sun don't shine)

Maybe "Right in Two", on an individual basis, is saying let a human have free will, find his/her own insight, let them eat from the "fruit of knowledge" (while patience and reason sit on the sideline with the Benevolent Sunlit Angel) Letting them find their own way, can only lead to disappointment, drowning, and division. Divide themselves right in two. The Separation between the innocent pure as we began self, and the blade forging with a fire from a spark self that squanders the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of fleeting time here.

AGAIN, I'm not so sure of that. Just barely enough to post it. But I did want to lob it, because I do think there is Something introspective in there. Maybe one of you already has this one?

right in two is introspective in that maynard is sick of trying to unify himself. maynard must separate from jimmy. Duality is the way of the universe. So being in two is right. right in two.

I can't seem to get my mind away from this. I have tried. And I have better things to think about. But, I want to elaborate on why Vicarious caps the set. (after Lateralus, of course)

Vicarious is a pretty straightforward song. Every knows what it means, but if there's any more to read into it, it's that it's the FOREMOST refutal of Lateralus & Aenima. (hence it being the first song on the album, and the last song of the show)

I (if I may be self absorbed once again) realized my life was better if I paid as little attention to the news as possible. Again before I listened to 10000 Days. Right after Katrina, actually. (that was some depressing shit and I just didn't want to care about something I couldn't do anything about.) Shallow is better. I have some say in making my immediate surroundings pleasant. Better to keep the unpleasant parts that aren't my surroundings out of my head.

The MEDIA is the MOST Concrete, Tangible, Real Life Manifestation of The Collective Conscious. You can spend 10 minutes squinting your eyes at the news (be it Fox, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, or WHATEVER) and get a pretty good feel for how the whole world feels. If your personal goal is to be a part of the whole, part of the unity, well, humanity has evolved enough through technology to show everyone exactly how inhumane humanity really is.

And you all know what the last verse of the song says. (I won't bother quoting it) (except the "pull your head out of your hippie haze" part, I dig that) So either Jung was totally wrong, or the "Collective Judas" is a really negative & hostile thing to strive to be a part of.

Again, if this is old news and has been discussed before, Good. (if anyone remembers any old threads discussing this, post 'em here.)

boobah,
Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have enjoyed reading them. Specifically, I resonated with your Rosetta Stoned being a mockery of Lateralus idea. I can only speak from my experience, but I have always been interested in conciousness evolution, be it through drugs or meditation. Throughout my path there have been cycles of deep insight, or being able to see the whole world laid out in front of me and understanding it, to thinking that everything I think is true is false, and everything I say is bullshit. I think 10000 Days lyrically speaking, is Maynard coming down from the ecstacy of the Lateralus enlightenment. Most people who experience unified consciousness, be it through drugs, meditation, near death experiences, etc.. revert back to their previous level of evolution and feel a deep sense of loss or sadness. Then there can be a time of trying to get back to that place of unification, which usually ends in failure, followed by saying fuck it, it was all bullshit anyway. This is how I see the lyrics unfolding in 10000 Days.

After Lateralus came out and i listened to it a million times, I talked with a friend about how I thought it would be their last album. Where else could they go? One poster mentioned what a disaster it would be for them to try to outlateralus Lateralus. Not only would it be a disaster, it would be impossible. But, what goes up goes down, and 10000 Days is a reflection of that. I think it is an amazing album on all levels, though I don't resonate with the lyrics in it whatsoever. I do hope they make another record, but only time will tell. These are my silly thoughts and thanks again for posting.

The current setlist follows occam's razor. The setlist as we know it today is a collection of songs that fall right in to (no pun intended) the middle of Maynard's range. These songs are some of the easiest songs to sing (by Tool). Take for example "The Patient" this song made a brief appearance early in the 10K days tour but it was clear, VERY CLEAR, if you watch bootlegs he could no longer perform the song as well as he once could. In addition "The Pot" was removed from the setlist, at one point Maynard even complained about having to sing the song on stage "my doctor says I shouldn't do this song but if I don't, you will all bitch about it"........ followed by "The Pot" Why do you think he doesn't sing the end of "Vicarious"? Some changes to the setlist were made on a night by night basis Such as "Right in Two" and "Pushit" but the over all structure has stayed the same for one simple reason Maynard can not sing as well as he once could. He's in his 40's, face it. If you don't believe me just watch some HD Youtube footage. This doesn't take away from the man as an artist its just part of aging.