Meaning of "The Grudge"..

[C-Finch]

"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~

[_sleeper]

the grudge,the stone,the anchor or whatever..

i believe that the last 2 words of the song says everything to be said.

let go...(of everything that hold you/us back)

[epistomai]

Both eyes are anoying seeing them together

[JERUSALEM]

"TRANSMUTATE THESE LEADEN GRUDGES INTO GOLD".....EVER NOTICE HOW HEAVY IN WIEGHT LEAD IS IN COMPARISON TO GOLD? IT MUST MEAN THAT ITS HARDER TO TRAVEL THROUGH LIFE UNDER THE HUGE BURDEN. IT'S JUST LIKE GIVING AWAY THE STONE WHO WOULD WANT TO CARRY A BOULDER THAT THEY DID'NT HAVE TO

[JERUSALEM]

IT IS SIMPLY ABOUT UNFORGIVENESS VS. FORGIVENESS.

[Doubt]

WE ALL LOVE CAPS LOCK

[seemyshadowchanging]

i like that the grudge can refer to anything in your life that has dragged you down and to let it go.this song make me think alot about my life and the things that i held on to that were so stupid.little things that made no difference and that how when you decide to let these things go how much better you feel.its like a weight being lifted off of you.

[dts]

I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.

[savelints8]

Don't ask us what it means. The song (any song) means something different to everyone. Listen to it and figure out what it means to you.

[dts]

Don't ask us what it means. The song (any song) means something different to everyone. Listen to it and figure out what it means to you.

Of course every work of art is open to interpretation. That's part of the fun.

Anyway, I realized shortly after writing the post that "scarlet lettermen" simply refers to anyone who has been branded by the church as a sinner. Remember Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter?"

"On the breast of her gown, in fine red cloth, surrounded with an elaborate embroidery and fantastic flourishes of gold thread, appeared the letter A."

[fugitive538]

Uhm, probably i shouldn't even post it here, but can someone explain to me that 'scarlet letterman' thing? English is not my first language, and im really having problems with understanding this part. (Probalby thats partly because i havent red Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter?)
I already have some ideas, cause i have spent some time with it, since The Grudge is one of my favourite songs, but anyway, i would be grateful if someone explained it to me.
So what does it refer to?
(Private message if you wish.)

[orangedarkblue]

Uhm, probably i shouldn't even post it here, but can someone explain to me that 'scarlet letterman' thing?
(Private message if you wish.)

Fugitive dude, Scarlet Letterman refers to both Hawthorne's novel and the David Letterman show, the first is set in the 17th century and tells the story of a Hester Prynne, who gives birth after committing adultery. She refuses to name the father and struggles to create a new life of repentance and dignity. Throughout, Hawthorne explores the meaning of grace, legalism, and guilt. Join the above with David Letterman and guilt / sleaze; out comes Scarlet Letterman = accuser. Compare forgiving SL with 'justifying denials.'

[orangedarkblue]

"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~

The Grudge = any Grudge you are holding, i.e. a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "wanting to settle a score"

Anyway, maybe you already know this, but I'm taking the liberty of adding some extra info on Saturn here:

Saturn astologically, and I think at least partly in MJK's universe as well, is seen as the grim reaper/ gate keeper. The planet rules the lessons we must learn in life. Saturn demands that all things come down, be given structure and meaning. He will stop you dead in your tracks if you are bedazzled by Neptune and have lost your grip on reality. Saturn is the planet at the end of the Roman universe, also their God of fertility. His symbol is the Scythe. Saturn is mythologically known to swallow his children, but it's not a real end of everything if Saturn swallows you. He reaps to plant new seeds. Ironically, in 'Saturn comes back around/ lifts you up like a child/ or drags you down like a stone' child and stone mean the same thing. Saturn will swallow you. Further reading - http://xrl.us/saturnscythe

Saturn Return - Each twenty-nine years present us with the challenge to rise to new levels of awareness, or face the consequences of having failed to gain the wisdom required so to do. (See Grudge lyrics) Saturn returns to the zodiacal degree where he was in your birth chart, once every 29 years, at around age 28-30, 57-59 (and if you live long enough) 86-88. You then have what astrologers call a Saturn Return, or -by proxy- a full ten thousand days cycle.

[the darknight]

i heard this song was about the legal trouble with their recordlable at the time...

[Janos]

Could be. In fact, it could be all of the above at the same time. Such is the beauty in Keenan' lyrics.

[orangedarkblue]

Could be. In fact, it could be all of the above at the same time. Such is the beauty in Keenan' lyrics.

thats right! :)

[DON IOTAE]

the grudge,the stone,the anchor or whatever..

i believe that the last 2 words of the song says everything to be said.

let go...(of everything that hold you/us back)
I just love the part where it says, "clutch it like a cornerstone". The imagery of that is just striking. Holding on to a grudge is hard, it takes a toll on us. Not only is it hard, but useless and pejorative. As you hold on to the cornerstone and it slowly slips away (because of its weight...), it gets harder to hold on to. It'll eventually fall down, unless you choose to let it go first. I just fuckin' love that phrase, in its context of course.

PS: nice avatar ;)

[savelints8]

The end is the best part of the song imo. The music seems repressed or held back until Maynard screams "let go". Then it's all unleashed in a massive fury of musical genius.

[DON IOTAE]

Abso-fuckin'-lutely.

[Enceladus]

bro you stole my avatar

[DON IOTAE]

bro you stole my avatar
You're not the first one to tell me taht. I'll give it back to you soon enough... ;)

*lol*

[viciouscycle]

lead to gold...gaining spiritual strength and rebirth through adversity. Existentialism is mentioned throughout this album, esp. the human condition of life's ups and downs, being vs. nothingness (the body which holds the soul, vs. crucifixion of the ego, to quote parabola and reflection). Sometimes, in order to reach your full potential you need to hit bottom first.

[DON IOTAE]

^ and the way to do that is to let go...

[Faltering]

I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.

Wow, awesome. I won't go so far as to say that this is what Maynard had in mind, because I don't really know, but I think that's a really interesting interpretation, and based on the evidence you presented, I wouldn't say it's out of the question at all.

Very cool.

[day8]

if you do a quick search online for somehting like 'astrological meanings of saturn' you read a few interreting things about what saturn means that has shed some light onto what that part of this song refers to. orangedarkblue already covered some of that, but there is more out there that i have found. search, research, and explore, within and without.

[DON IOTAE]

Enceladus got his avatar back... ;)

[ShadowLine]

the grudge for me is about change. 'saturn ascends' (cycle of saturn=change in life), 'transmuate the leaden grudges into gold' (change the hat the cold ugliness of hate into something good and posistive, shining.
'let go'- change simply let the grudge go- it reli doesnt matter in the long run.

chris
x

[DON IOTAE]

^ absolutely.

[LonesomeKiller]

Saturn was mythologically known as the god of agriculture, he was also said to have moved to Rome and begin the Golden Age, so "transmutate these leaden grudges into gold" I believe means not letting your mind impair you from artistic expression, "lead to gold" is simply the opening of your mind and letting your grudges go, ie "let go"

[DON IOTAE]

Saturn, in Roman mythology, is also the bringer of old age. Holst, anyone?

[davecbr]

Holst, anyone?[/QUOTE]

How about Purcell instead?

[Opiate_Of_The_Mind]

"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~

In my opinion, the grudge is about learning to forgive or choosing not to forgive. A really cool line in the song is Clutch it like a corner Stone. Being, if you don't hold on to it, it will all fall down. You have a choice, you can hold on the the grudge, let it stand and stay forever and just grow over time. Or let it go and the walls of anger/hate tumble down.


Saturn is the realising of the grudge that you have.

One or Ten goes along with teachings of Quaballah. 1 would be forgiving. (Going the way of God.) 10 would be unforgiving. Going the way of the world.

That's a small part of my thoughts. If you want, I would be happy to share more.

[The Tower That Ate People]

One or Ten goes along with teachings of Quaballah. 1 would be forgiving. (Going the way of God.) 10 would be unforgiving. Going the way of the world.

That's a small part of my thoughts. If you want, I would be happy to share more.

I think you are right on that matter. I was just thinking the same as I listened to the song and read people's interpretation and thought of the Tree of Life. How I get it is something like, you know, these ten sephiroth where 1 is, as you said it yourself, union with God and that must indeed mean forgiveness. In the lowest end of the Tree we have Malkuth, which represent the earthly kingdom. Saturn represents a change in ones life, and that change could for that matter very well be the choice of forgiveness or letting go of something. I don't know why but lead makes me think of the earth and gravity. Maybe because of its weight but I am not sure. And by the way, isn't gold associated with Kether (1)?

But Opiate_Of_The_Mind, I would like to read more of your suggestions...

The interpretation of the churchs believing the earth to be the center of the universe and being proven wrong, is very interesting but I don't quite get it that way. But I like that thinking :)

[Opiate_Of_The_Mind]

I think you are right on that matter. I was just thinking the same as I listened to the song and read people's interpretation and thought of the Tree of Life. How I get it is something like, you know, these ten sephiroth where 1 is, as you said it yourself, union with God and that must indeed mean forgiveness. In the lowest end of the Tree we have Malkuth, which represent the earthly kingdom. Saturn represents a change in ones life, and that change could for that matter very well be the choice of forgiveness or letting go of something. I don't know why but lead makes me think of the earth and gravity. Maybe because of its weight but I am not sure. And by the way, isn't gold associated with Kether (1)?

But Opiate_Of_The_Mind, I would like to read more of your suggestions...

The interpretation of the churchs believing the earth to be the center of the universe and being proven wrong, is very interesting but I don't quite get it that way. But I like that thinking :)




Lead also got me thinking, I thought that was the grudge (Something of little value) turning into something great. (Gold.) As in Schism the poetry in squaring off.

[Godin]

Don't ask us what it means. The song (any song) means something different to everyone. Listen to it and figure out what it means to you.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I flat out disagree with this common "hippy-hazed" opinion. A song only ever has a finite RANGE of meanings, which means a song CANNOT "mean something different to everyone". (unless of course if everyone does not even pay the song any mind when forming a thought about it, and therefore the thought which comes in response from the mindless contemplation is likely completely unrelated to the song and potentially infinite in possibilities. THEN in that case it could mean something different to everyone.)

Our interpretations of any song must be rooted VERY closely to the actual words used in the song. This is a healthy practice, and I wish more people would pay attention to it, because sometimes it seems people make comments about songs who couldn't even explain why it is they think that way. They here a word or a phrase in a song, it reminds them of a girlfriend 5 years ago who used that word or phrase under a different context, and this person thinks the song is about his girlfriend from 5 years ago. Sure, we all are responsible for our own inward experience of the world, so we should be allowed to think what we want about the music we like. We're also responsible for what we contaminate others' minds with. I just resent the mindframe that preaches open season for everybodies' own "personal" meaning to a song... there are limitations.


I've read some good posts as to what this song is about in this thread... I would just like to emphasize the lyrics

Saturn ascends...comes round again...to show you everything.

A Saturn return: When you were born, where was Saturn astrologically positioned in the night sky? 29 1/2 years later after your birth, once Saturn has come back around to this very spot again, this will signify an important moment in your life... supposedly. It will be your first Saturn return. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_return

This song is about many of the things that have been written about in this thread by others... but it is also about those things in the SPECIFIC context of someone who is approaching the 29th year of their life, and of whom has been holding some sort of grudge basically since their childhood.

[okemopoma]

"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~

Perhaps just to let go of all your grudges. It takes a lot of negative energy to hold a grudge. Energy that could be used for better things.

[Lawy]

To me it means a song to release your negative thoughts after another booooring school day... I can go home and scream with the song and finally feel released. i think it's about how your negative emotions show you in a bad way to other people, who don't even really know you. 'wear the grudge like a crown'

[W_I_E]

well as far as i cant tell this songs has something to to with the church and dts's Interpretation makes alot of sense to me

[Davidow]

I think it holds a more personal meaning related to the indiviudal mind trying to ''let go'' of all bad thoughts and cleanse the soul from the past

[slamminsalmon]

ive always thought about it, as dropping your ego.

[eternalnuisance.com]

I always thought it was about how people are dumbasses for holding on to stupid grudges that are ultimately irrelevant.

[KaerveK]

I think it holds a more personal meaning related to the indiviudal mind trying to ''let go'' of all bad thoughts and cleanse the soul from the past

I agree

This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.


Very interesting, the following album show an extreme departure from TOOL's norm, both on album and live, and that the new album is called 10,000 Days, which is roughly 30 years, coupled with the lack of older, more angsty songs from TOOL. Perhaps Lateralus and 10k fit together as an overall topic of change. (I think Jambi deals with this alot too, finding you saturn or center and protecting it, devil had me down, shelter the devil and got what I wanted)


For those of you still chasing the holy gift, perhaps the you should consider that Lateralus as only part of the puzzle. without Vigniti Tres, the two albums are 23 songs, and it is odd that 10k seems so brief.

Thanks for endurring my random thoughts,

V

[KaerveK]

I think it holds a more personal meaning related to the indiviudal mind trying to ''let go'' of all bad thoughts and cleanse the soul from the past

I agree

This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.


Very interesting, the following album shows an extreme departure from TOOL's norm, both on album and live, and that the new album is called 10,000 Days, which is roughly 30 years, coupled with the lack of older, more angsty songs from TOOL. Perhaps Lateralus and 10k fit together as an overall topic of change. (I think Jambi deals with this alot too, finding you saturn or center and protecting it, devil had me down, shelter the devil and got what I wanted)


For those of you still chasing the holy gift, perhaps the you should consider that Lateralus as only part of the puzzle. without Vigniti Tres, the two albums are 23 songs, and it is odd that 10k seems so brief. And evidently they had already worked pieces of this album when they were touring lateralus (parts of wings played live in 2002). Maybe if we pay clsoe attention to where they play the snippit intros live, it will fit together somwhow?

Thanks for endurring my random thoughts, just talking off the top of my head (too much caffiene tonight.

V

[KaerveK]

subscribing

[yearofthelizard]

Hmm, i think this song refers to area 51 in roswell new mexico, in the old days, Saturn was sometimes used as a reference to a UFO, and the grudge was the false report the goverment used to as the cover up, i think this is about lieing about reality to protect what some seem as right for society, but doing a bad job.

[Burl]

I`ve never had a clear interpretation about this song, but I think it`s about holding a grudge for old things. Thoughts about forgivness and unforgivness and stuff like that. It refers to things like religion, discrimination and everyday life... if we all just could have a fresh start, thing would be better....maybe. Letting go of the things that are no longer relevant.

EDIT: Typo

[Godin]

It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of... the new album is called 10,000 Days, which is roughly 30 years...Perhaps Lateralus and 10k fit together as an overall topic of change.

...without Vigniti Tres, the two albums are 23 songs, and it is odd that 10k seems so brief...


I've been long entertaining some of the ideas you posted up there... like 10,000 days is roughly equal to a Saturn return which is mentioned on the grudge and would link both songs by the theme of affecting a mid-life change, as you mentioned in your post.

Along with that, I just wanted to help aid your considerations by mentioning how it is VERY likely that Lost Keys/Rosetta Stoned is a "prequel" to Faip di Oeed (or whatever!). Rosetta Stoned would be the telling of the guy's story before and during the part where he was "strapped down to [his] bed" at the hospital... Faaip de Ooad would of course be the part afterward where he escaped. If you think of these songs in this manner, then it makes sense as to why there's such a huge build-up to Rosetta Stoned. Because when you actually listen to Faaip de Oaad it's easy to become curious as hell as to what this guy's back story is... well, Tool climatically delivers with the telling of this story in their new album.

Another little tid bit,... supposedly Faaip Do Eed (or whatever, haha) means "Voice of God"... well.. Lost Keys almost certainly refers to lost keys to the gates of heaven... the same gate that is mentioned in the song "10,000 days" and of which "you're the only one who can hold your head up high" and shake your fists at.

I've often argued for a strong interlink between the songs... glad to see it's occuring to others as well.. if perhaps in varrying ways.

[Eschaton]

the "Give away the stone..." line comes from the books of the golden dawn almost word for word. If you search hermatic order of the golden dawn on google youl find that tool references their teachings quite a bit

[ShadowLine]

This is what The grudge means to me personally, i cant speculate on what ground maynard wrote the song, thats for him to know.:

Wear the grudge like a crown
Of negativity

This is showing your anger, your grudge, your hate tpward something, also the first reference of it being negative.

Calculate what you will and
Will not tolerate

You are setting boundaries of tolarence, but your grudge limits you to to open and free.

Desperate to control
All and everything

you feel out of control and want to take the control back.

Unable to forgive
Your scarlet letterman

'unable to forgive your secret lover/writer'

Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down

hold it tight, dont let the grudge go or you loose the control the grudge gives you, you looses the security in set boundaries, given by the grudge.

Justify denials and
Grip 'em to the lonesome end

your justifying your denials to yourself and wont admit your wrong.

Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down

same as above

Terrified of being wrong
Ultimatum prison cell

terrified of being wrong (back to justifying your denials)
a final demand, the rejection of which may lead to a resort to force


Saturn ascends
Choose one or ten

a new chapter of your life is starting, you can change now, you can get rid of the 'stone' or the grudge and get on with your life.
chooses one or ten, one- a new path, a reinvention letting go of the grudge.
ten-carry on and wallow in misery

Hang on or be
Humbled again
Humbled again

if you choose to change your ways, you will be humbled by realising youve been wrong.

Clutch it like a cornerstone (crescendo)
Otherwise it all comes down
Justify denials and
Grip 'em to the lonesome end

same as above


Saturn ascends
Comes 'round again
Saturn ascends
The one, the ten

the one the te, saturn represents both choices, letting go or gripping tighter.

Ignorant to
The damage done

the damage your grudge has done to your life.


Wear the grudge like a crown
Of negativity
Calculate what you will
Will not tolerate
Desperate to control
All and everything
Unable to forgive
Your scarlet letterman

same as above

Wear the grudge like a crown (crescendo)
Desperate to control
Unable to forgive
And sinking deeper

sinking deeper into the grudgem its becoming a part of you.

Defining
Confining
Sinking deeper

defining the rules you set the rules in your comfort zone in the grudge because you are convinced you are right. confining yourself to your prison of the grudge

Controlling
Defining
And we're sinking deeper

controlling your life, not being open to change or anything else

Saturn comes back around
To show you everything

to show you both paths to give you the means to choose the next path of your life.

Lets you choose what you will
Will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone
Or lifts you up again

drags- another 30 years oif the same, grudge, ans not letting go
lifts- new path, no grudge

Spits you out like a child
Light and innocent

spits you out like a child, a child being able to question everything, not relying on comfort in routine ir tradition of the grudge, being able to truly question everything with inquisition.

Saturn comes back around
Lifts you up like a child
Or drags you down like a stone
To consume you 'til you
Choose to
Let this go
Choose to
Let this go

basically, let the grudge go and start a new life, it'll be better, if not the grudge will consume you.

Give away the stone

let the grudge go

Let the ocean take and transmutate

the ocean-the cleanser, washing away the past crap and changing

This cold and fated anchor

the anchor, keeping you in the same old rut of the grudge

Give away the stone
Let the waters kiss and transmutate
These leaden grudges into gold

taking the cold ugly, negative energies of the grudge and changing them into a positive outlook, to open your eyes to the truth.

(gold... gold... gold... gold... gold...
gold... gold... gold... gold...) (decrescendo)

Let go (crescendo)

Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go
Let go (crescendo)


let the grudge go.


sorry bout the huge post.

chris
x

[DON IOTAE]

sticky this thread, pleez

[base metal]

Good analysis. There are different ways to interpret Maynard's lyrics as we all know, but, this one is pretty easy to understand. Not everyone is holding grudges over silly, petty shit though, these feelings are tougher to deal with for some people. Not my favorite Tool song by any means, but, definitely one I relate to.

[DON IOTAE]

On the other hand, im still trying to decide if The Grudge or Vicarious is a better album opener...

[base metal]

I dunno?

[base metal]

Anyway, this song is basically saying let go or sink and sink until it kills you or someone else for that matter...huh...I know that I could certainly strangle a couple of people.

[alexreflection]

I don't really think about its meaning, but it works for me by helping me to let go of something that has been bothering me. I feel relieved after listening to it.

[Kotowboy]

My favourite song on the album

[DON IOTAE]

^ good contender. fuckin great opener. mesmerizing intro. luv it, luv it, luv it.

[TEST]

there is nothin to discuss here...
the song is about holding a grudge...

[YKM]

dis song modda cont

[lyricalconundrum]

Very few good ideas see the light of day, and some of these posts are paradigms to this theory. Freud would have a field day with most of your interpretations of these songs. Anyhoo, I'm very tired and apprehensive because I'm awaiting a departure to my hometown and I decided to put in my two cents, which mean virtually nothing to you Tool geeks (or aptly put, tools). But for those who want to know what another pretentious, cornerstone grasping piece of shit thinks, here you go. The Grudge is about deconstruction in an existential sense, dismantling standards and perspectives to become pure and transcend the evolution of presumed necessity. Saturn was a god who mitigated control of the universe, and ate his children so to avoid further demagogues. Eventually Jupiter overtook because Ops, Staurn's wife persuaded him with a stone. (That's really not important, though.) Basically, Saturn, the mitigation of standardized and constructed thought "comes back around" to make sure we aren't contriving any cornerstones for thought that are fraudulent. Fraudulent fundamentals, in other words. Grudges, as another synonym. Emotional qualms that are egoistic. We need to "crucify ego" (as said in Reflection) and realize we are all one reality, not these selfish individuals who are concerned with individual qualms and thought. Become one and transcend, beyond over analyzation which will muddle opportunity. Allow the reality with which you are inevitably a component to sway you in its current and act on unadulterated will and basicality (in a transcended sense, not banality), to "spiral out, and keep going". "We are eternal" because we're continuous and one, and it is in ourselves that make it holy. To paraphrase Osho, we are all waves in the ocean, and it is impossible for one wave to deny the tide. Naturally, all of these forum geeks are self indulgent, arrogant lone wolfs who think their standards are so outstanding and amazing that they needn't adhere to majority. Well, yes, majority is ignorant and corrupted. But living in separated bundles and finding pleasure in arrogance and esotericism is just as stagnating. Grab onto the correct rhythms, sentiments, and regimes and then spiral out... and keep going.

[iAMtheMA!]

Saturn was mythologically known as the god of agriculture, he was also said to have moved to Rome and begin the Golden Age, so "transmutate these leaden grudges into gold" I believe means not letting your mind impair you from artistic expression, "lead to gold" is simply the opening of your mind and letting your grudges go, ie "let go"

attach these observations to disgustipated, you'll like it:
http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?p=1615869

[wilkez]

it is key that the grudge is at the start of the album. when i listen to the cd, the grudge is the song that makes me forget everything that im thinking about, everything that happened that day, that week, everything. it focuses me on the music, makes let go of what i think of as reality. it prepares me to take in the messages and feelings of the rest of the cd in a whole new way

[Humbled]

My interpretation: Humble yourself, and free your mind of the heavy leadened stone.

The Scarlet Letterman refers to one who wronged you. The grudge is held against him.

The Letterman created the grudge, but what peace does holding it against him bring?

The song asks that you look past your ego in order in reach this forgiveness and peace. Pride can be blinding, humble yourself, and let go.



P.S. Maybe ask Saturn for help.

[opiated]

Saturn ascends every 27 years or 10,000 days (which, at that interval, you must change the engine oil, rotate the tires, and change the brake pads so you can keep moving on).

[K1DA]

so assuming maynard is talking about the tree of life, which also is probably referred to in Lateralus as well, does that mean maynard is a jew? It would certainly mean he agrees with some of the core Jewish mysticism beliefs. what do you guys think about this?

[Ryan Brock Campbell]

Ignorant to the patterns you're trapped in. Unaware perseptions purpetuate the behavior that make the patterns. Negative toward solution because the solution points to you--your hand in the brickwork you are trapped in. The ego manifesting separation. Leaden grudges are stored energy. Imagine your self at the bottom of the sea--holding on to a lead weight--believing moving it will propel you into (what ever) peace, love, wealth, joy--the surface where you might breathe! When actually letting go will give you what you desire. Let go the weight of your beliefs (or false perseption or what ever it is you clutch to stay HERE) and you will fly--float rapidly to the surface instantly becoming what you desire. Letting go turned into a treasure (gold).
It is larger than the artists who express it--being about large changes we under go now as our planet(s) shift and we move into higher faster states of energy. Choose one or ten--it makes no differnce--change is bouned! Forcing us into the space where our thoughts alone form our reality. What you think IS--this reality is manifesting faster and faster. Me? I believe we are moving to conscious unity with the astral plane where there is no longer an illusion (death, separation, inside, outside, time). But... what do I know? myspace.com/ryanbrockcampbell

[FallingTear]

Ignorant to the patterns you're trapped in. Unaware perseptions purpetuate the behavior that make the patterns. Negative toward solution because the solution points to you--your hand in the brickwork you are trapped in. Leaden grudges are stored energy. Imagine your self at the bottom of the sea--holding on to a lead weight--believing moving it will propel you into (what ever) peace, love, wealth, joy--the surface where you might breathe! When actually letting go will give you what you desire. Let go the weight of your beliefs (or false perseption or what ever it is you clutch to stay HERE) and you will fly--float rapidly to the surface instantly becoming what you desire. Letting go turned into a treasure (gold).
It is larger than the artists who express it--being about large changes we under go now as our planet(s) shift and we move into higher faster states of energy. Our thoughts alone are forming our reality more and more tightly at that. What you think IS--this reality is manifesting faster and faster. Me? I believe we are moving to conscious unity with the astral plane where there is no longer an illusion (death, separation, inside, outside, time). But... what do I know?

can i have your autograph?

[resonance.]

Ignorant to the patterns you're trapped in. Unaware perseptions purpetuate the behavior that make the patterns. Negative toward solution because the solution points to you--your hand in the brickwork you are trapped in. Leaden grudges are stored energy. Imagine your self at the bottom of the sea--holding on to a lead weight--believing moving it will propel you into (what ever) peace, love, wealth, joy--the surface where you might breathe! When actually letting go will give you what you desire. Let go the weight of your beliefs (or false perseption or what ever it is you clutch to stay HERE) and you will fly--float rapidly to the surface instantly becoming what you desire. Letting go turned into a treasure (gold).
It is larger than the artists who express it--being about large changes we under go now as our planet(s) shift and we move into higher faster states of energy. Our thoughts alone are forming our reality more and more tightly at that. What you think IS--this reality is manifesting faster and faster. Me? I believe we are moving to conscious unity with the astral plane where there is no longer an illusion (death, separation, inside, outside, time). But... what do I know?

This is the best first post in the entire history of the internet.

[FallingTear]

Custom Title?

[blair's man sausage]

it's about alchemy

[DON IOTAE]

right.

[Intolerable]

Someone edited "The Grudge" wikipedia page with his/her interpretation of the song, and I think it puts into better words how I see this song. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grudge_%28song%29

I copied and pasted it, while cleaning it up a bit. I do need to mention that I disagree on the interpretation of the 'Saturn ascends' lines, but it is a pretty accurate interpretation, in my humble opinion.

wear the grudge like a crown of negativity

Go ahead, put your grudge out where everyone can see it, let everyone know that you're mad and that you want to be that way.

calculate what we will and will not tolerate

Decide exactly what you want to get mad over that would make you hold a grudge. this way when it happens, you can keep putting that crown back on.

desperate to control all and everything

you don't want to be on good terms. you WANT the grudge. if you can control the grudge, you can control the person you hold the grudge against.

unable to forgive your scarlet letterman

Although they know they've done wrong, you won't forgive them under any circumstance.

clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down

Clutch the grudge that you hold like a cornerstone, because you know if you don't then the grudge dies. You don't want that.

justify denials and grip em to the lonesome end

Come up with excuses to continue holding the grudge, and stand by them until the end, even when everyone hates you for what you're doing, hence lonesome.

Terrified of being wrong, ultimatum prison cell

You're scared to death that someone can prove that you have no reason to hold a grudge. you worry about it so much you put yourself in your own little prison over it. [Remember this whole time, I believe Maynard's making fun of the people that do this. Almost reverse psycology by showing them how stupid it is.]

Then I have to agree with 'Insecure Dilusions' idea on the Saturn thing. Saturn was god of all greek gods. He was sooo worried he could be overthrown he ate his children. Yet Zeus was the one thing that Saturn overlooked. That one thing overthrew Saturn and killed him. Hang on to the grudge like saturn would, because if you don't you'll be humbled in your ignorance. And later he says "ignorant to the damage done"... ignorance isn't stupidity, it's not knowing about something. in this case, Saturn was ignorant to the damage done to himself until Zeus killed him.

unable to forgive and we're sinking deeper

You won't forgive, and for this you're slowly creating a larger grudge.

The grudge begins to define you, confine you, even control you.

Again to the Saturn reference for almost the rest of the song. Saying that Saturn, almost as if, takes over your body. He and you become one, you make the decisions Saturn chose. And not until you end the grudge will he quit tearing you apart.

Finally Maynard quit's criticizing and simply tells them what they need to do. Give away the (corner)stone. Let the oceans take and transmute this cold and weighted anchor (that was your grudge, holding you down). Give away the stone. Let the waters take and transmute these leaden (heavy burdensome) grudges into gold. LET GO

[HelenA]

Finally Maynard quit's criticizing and simply tells them what they need to do. Give away the (corner)stone. Let the oceans take and transmute this cold and weighted anchor (that was your grudge, holding you down). Give away the stone. Let the waters take and transmute these leaden (heavy burdensome) grudges into gold. LET GO

This song is one of those great examples of where a Tool song is actually a tool. A helpful device that assists us. If we applied this song to our lives then we would be better off. Holding onto a grudge is like holding onto a block of lead that is sinking into the sea. Just let go, and you will transmute into gold. Just give away the stone. It is so hard to hold onto it anyway.

This song reminds me of Whitlam's quote "Maintain the Rage" after he was sacked as PM. It is so hard to maintain the rage - it takes so much energy. And it also reminds me of that scene out of "The Piano" where she has the piano tied to her ankle as she is dragged down into the sea. As she lets go she lives again.

I know I am just raving on - I just love this song - and I wanted to say something - anything!

[DON IOTAE]

oh yea

[mr. nikki jensen]

the grudge,the stone,the anchor or whatever..

i believe that the last 2 words of the song says everything to be said.

let go...(of everything that hold you/us back)

yea let go let go

[ShadowLine]

so assuming maynard is talking about the tree of life, which also is probably referred to in Lateralus as well, does that mean maynard is a jew? It would certainly mean he agrees with some of the core Jewish mysticism beliefs. what do you guys think about this?

i dont think he conforms to any organised religion because to do that would be not thinking for yourself which is key to any sort of growth. the tree of life, mandala, the star of david (representng merkaba) are all themes brought forth in tool's music, but it doesnt make him a jew. these ideas are all the bassis of the true Reality. If you need to post a 'religion' on him, try reading the ancient secret of the flower of lif by drunvalo melchedezik, as most of the themes in the music are covered in this book.

much love to all
chris
x

[benjamin]

"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~


See; bassplayerphilps "An essay I did." then think Freud....

[ShadowLine]

Naturally, all of these forum geeks are self indulgent, arrogant lone wolfs who think their standards are so outstanding and amazing that they needn't adhere to majority. Well, yes, majority is ignorant and corrupted. But living in separated bundles and finding pleasure in arrogance and esotericism is just as stagnating. Grab onto the correct rhythms, sentiments, and regimes and then spiral out... and keep going.

are you not being arrogant and, well, yes ignorant by assuming anyone who has a spiritual belief or finds esoterical meaning in things are wrong and you are right? judging by the 'tone' if you will of the post you are arrogant and self indulgent.

chris
x

[el-comerfordo]

i went to school with a guy called hugh gudgeon. he was tiny. i mean like 4 foot nothing. my mate rob picked him up an rested him on his head , an turned to us saying, "wear the gudge like a crown". life imitating art or what?

[DON IOTAE]

LOL

[benjamin]

i went to school with a guy called hugh gudgeon. he was tiny. i mean like 4 foot nothing. my mate rob picked him up an rested him on his head , an turned to us saying, "wear the gudge like a crown". life imitating art or what?

Fucker...I just spent the last 10 min. cleaning coffee off of my monitor!

LOL!!!!!!

[benjamin]

Plenty of people here have gone over the top translating, decifering, and explaning the many references and language uses of this beautiful song here. All have been rather insightful and generally precise. None, however, have really touched on the "Meaning of "The Grudge".
What IS "The Grudge" and WHO holds it?
Well, my friends, the grudge is anger and it is held by every man.
I'm not quite sure wheather this is Maynards own philosophy, or his direct description of some other teaching, but it goes like this. Much like yin & yan, man and woman exist in an infinite, opposing/equalizing relationship (2 forces juxtaposed). One part of being a male force is having a certain degree of paranoia. This paranoia is a unique ingredient that helps fuel a specifically male anger. Freud theorized that the relationship between a man and his mother, broke mans psychie in such a way that it made him hate every other man subconsciously.* Saturn was soo paranoid of his own sons that he ate them. In fact, it is true that male souls cary a resentment of being a provider in an existance which seems to have an everexpanding list of dependants. This resentment and distain fuels a distinct furnace of anger, or more importantly, violence. The grudge then, is the anger, male anger. "Holding" the grudge, is being violent. Every males anger is projected in the form of violence toward his world. Practicing non-violence, and subsequently redirecting and harnessing the emotional energy of anger, is the way you "let go" of the grudge. I'm talking about like, O.K. Ghandi, he was non-violent. Not you or me that has-always-been-a-nice-guy type of non-violent, the extreme shit. Like, "You cannot disagree with an enemy, even one who seeks to harm or kill you. To do so would be an act of violence upon his ideas."--Ghandi. So the grudge is anger, or more directly, the precipitous anger that materializes in the form of non-physical violence. Or in some cases(a sad amount imo) even outright physical violence. You see, even those of us males who would be labelled "sensetive" and "compassionate", are still permiating one form of non-physical violence or another...

Line-for-line:
1)Go on, exude your manlyness.
2)Plainly hypocritical. Pre-determine, that which was intended to be natural.
3)You wouldn't admit to it, but you are.
4)Did you younger peeps wiki 'scarlet letter':) ...adultery ...males angry at males.
5&6)It's much easier to BUILD upon this seemingly immovable object. Rather than trying to manipulate the object itself.
7&8)Self explainitory imagery.
9&10)"..."
10&11)Fear itself leads toward your greatest fear, embracing the anger on its terms.
12&13)Saturn ascends as the one and the ten, the one is the ten, the amnisic cycle, cold, uncompassionate, the ten does not exist, the one the ten, the one the ten, anger is not violence, anger is only anger, the one is the ten, their is no ten only one, there is no violence only anger...

...document your minds non-physical violence with excruciating criticism. Allow anger to encourage less violent thoughts. You'll be on your way to letting go. If you're outright violent ...for heavens sake go attack Maynard so he can rip your throat out already.

Peace.

*It may be a mistake to "sum-up" Freud in one sentance but wth.

[benjamin]

Calculate what WE will and will not tolerate."WE" as in; all men. IMO.

[benjamin]

An underlying meaning of Saturn speaks of structer, order, and taking responsibility for ones actions.

[BlueTape]

Of course every work of art is open to interpretation. That's part of the fun.

Anyway, I realized shortly after writing the post that "scarlet lettermen" simply refers to anyone who has been branded by the church as a sinner. Remember Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter?"

"On the breast of her gown, in fine red cloth, surrounded with an elaborate embroidery and fantastic flourishes of gold thread, appeared the letter A."

scarlet letterman...

who writes in red? has anyone ever read the bible?

[benjamin]

In "old-world" anglo-saxon culture, an adulterer would recieve a scarlet A that would be sewn onto their jacket for all to see.

[Ghostwriter]

Maynard sings "control him" which relates to the grudge created by different races of men trying to control eachother.

[Toolfan#1]

My interpretation of what "The Grudge" is about is that. Either Maynard himself or someone he knew had somthing tragic happen to them like someone murdering a loved one or (i.e. Child abuse) or just a grudge against a spirit. But the main point to this song is to let go of the grudge. You won't accomplish anything by trying to get revenge. The Saturn reference is the return of Saturn theory that if you have a clean, forgiving conscience than you will get "Picked up like a child"

Well this is MY INTERPRETATION of The Grudge to discuss farther or just to chat about TOOL

Email me at [email protected]

[ShadowLine]

Maynard sings "control him" which relates to the grudge created by different races of men trying to control eachother.

actually he sings 'controlling'

chris
x

[ColdLogic]

Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.

But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"

Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.

[Cheesegreater]

Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.

But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"

Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.

It's actually a pretty good interpretation. I think it definitely shows the depth of his forgiveness. However, I also find the point of this song to be very straight-forward. This song is about forgiving grudges all together, whether it be for god, country, or other people, the nature of the grudge is very negative and never produces anything positive.

"Give away the stone." This must be refering to the figurative weight you carry when holding the grudge. Give it away or you'll only sink deeper.

The first verse of this song is really enlightening. When you wear a grudge you hold like a crown, you're constantly calculating what you will and will not tolerate from whatever you're holding the grudge against. Thus, you're forcing yourself into a negative frame of mind.

"Justify denials." To me this is simply denying you are doing anything wrong by holding the grudge. For instance, denying how wrong it can be to be a real prick towards someone for a long time. It's like you feel entitled to being a prick because of the negative emotions you harbor towards them. Justifying the denial of being civil towards someone.

"Controllin'! Confinin'! Sinking! DEEPER!!" All the while you've been holding this grudge it's been controlling your life. You've become so ate up with it that it's confining the opportunities life has to offer you. Eventually, it can destroy everything around you.

These last lines are the advice underlying the whole song: "Consume you til you choose to let this go. Choose to let this go. Choose to let this go."

I think the very long scream in this song says a lot more than one might think. Notice that this scream is just a scream. He's not screaming a word. He just screams for about 25 seconds straight. Well, he just said that this grudge will consume you until you let it go. This scream is all about getting all that hatred and anger out of your system. It's the equivalent of going out into the woods and punching the shit out of a tree. After all that you hear him chanting what he's been saying all along, "Let go." over and over, louder and louder.

Quite simply this song is medication for someone holding an intense grudge.

[torrent-rain]

An underlying meaning of Saturn speaks of structure, order, and taking responsibility for ones actions.


From an astrological view-point as well (I find astrology fascinating)... I agree with this statement...

All of these interpretations are interesting to say the least... but I particularly
like the post in this thread where the entire song is broken down with the authors personal thoughts...

I haven't really analyzed this song.. just read through the lyrics & listened... but I too think this song could be as simplistic as it's title... 'The Grudge' .. to hold a grudge and/or to be unwilling to give or admit : give or allow reluctantly or resentfully.

But these are merely my thoughts.

[Ghostwriter]

12/21/12????????

[martyrinexile86]

The only lyric in this song I still don't fully comprehend is the line, "Choose 1 or 10". From my perspective, it seems to mean that you have to make a choice as to whether or not to let the grudge fall away from you, or to still be obsessed and completely immersed in your vengeance and anger towards the person or thing that you're holding the grudge against. However, any additional ideas about this particular lyric would be helpful.

[felix45]

This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.



I love you, you've helped me so much. you have no idea. I've been stuck on this song for so long. its like it has eaten away at all of my thoughts. this makes perfect sense to me. sure the simple take it as it is about grudges and how saturn (god) ate his kids and all seems like the answer but I see more truth in this than anything else I've seen on this song.

[Flood23]

Every Tool song has its own meaning to every person that is why Tool is such a good band. YOu can sit down and fully elaborate any album by them and each person will come up with a different meaning and how it relates to them

[ShadowLine]

Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.

But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"

Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.


this is in no way an attack on any persons interpretation. but how do we know that Manard suffered child abuse? maybe i missed something major here but ive never read anything or heard anything from his mouth or any of the other members of the band about this.

if this is just a supposition i think we should kind of stop talking about the child abuse if it is just speculation.

as i say im not having a go at anyone, just wondered about the childhood abuses.

be well.

chris
x

[ahhnevermind]

This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.

absolutely. it is multi-layered but this is the crux of the song.
the rest of the album deals with a sort of spiritual exploration - they are very vulnerable pieces in which transcendence is always the goal. the common tenant of every single hero story (which is always the story of transcendence) is the letting go of the ego - sacrificing what's important to YOU for something greater than you. Your ego, and all the beliefs, passions, and memories (here symbolized by an example: the grudge) are the stone that keeps you stuck to the ground. Thus this song is the necessary beginning.

Step 1. Let go.

Step 3. Transcend.

we waste our time here musing about the gap there, describing our reaction.

"the fool looks at the hand pointed to the sky"

at least our intentions are pure?

[Goat Boy]

I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.

Science can be dogma as well. Institutions use dogma to mask power, yes, but that does not mean that divinity and perfection are non-existent. Honestly, I am much more worried about those who claim that divinity and perfection don't exist anywhere when many religious/epistemological traditions claim they exist everywhere and in everything. The key is for one not to put limits, scientific, religious or otherwise, on possible truths.

[topheronehalf]

Well this thread has been deeply enlightening, but it seems only one person has touched upon a theme in the song that means a lot to me personally. Instead of go over all of my interpretations, I'd just like to point out this one factor.

When someone is holding a grudge the thoughts and actions that result from it are negative and usually destructive. They are not necessarily physically destructive, but they will blind a person from seeing themselves and the truth.

"Justify denials" is a key phrase in this theme as is "Clutch it like a corner stone".

The individual(s) holding the grudge will find themselves constructing a network of lies that become the foundation of their existence and as a result are doomed to misery, constantly battling to support their prison and their home, because it has become all that they know. To allow this to fall is to forfeit your method of living. How will you determine right and wrong, true or false, if all the knowledge you depend on is proven wrong?

For this reason, the person is desperate to control their world. People simply do not like acknowledging the fact that we truly are not in control, that we are at the mercy of the universe, life, and luck, and tragedy can fly our way no matter how hard we try to avoid it. However it is the urge to control that makes us miserable, because it restricts us from seeing the real beauty of life and existence.

Thus, the answer everyone's looking for, how to obtain happiness, is to let go. Embrace the loss of the world you depend on, learn to accept and appreciate everything that comes your way.

[AceOfSwords12]

By choosing one over ten, you are reborn- free of the grudge. The line "spits you out like a child" represents a re-birth, free of the boundaries and false justifications you created to deal with the grudge, able to question and think for yourself again.

I have been told that "10,000 Days" is roughly the time the mother of MJK was paralyzed and in poor health before passing away. Therefore it is plausible that there is no correlation between the Saturn Cycle described in the grudge, and the following album. I am not sure that "Lateralus" is as closely linked to "10k Days" as some hope to prove, but no question there is some material that seems to transcend both albums.

[thomasknight]

The only lyric in this song I still don't fully comprehend is the line, "Choose 1 or 10". From my perspective, it seems to mean that you have to make a choice as to whether or not to let the grudge fall away from you, or to still be obsessed and completely immersed in your vengeance and anger towards the person or thing that you're holding the grudge against. However, any additional ideas about this particular lyric would be helpful.

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=69952

The last post's the one you want.

[slamminsalmon]

ive always thought about it, as dropping your ego.

wow i forgot i even posted in this thread...i still like that thought


now after some time, i feel like the grudge, is referring to the grudges one holds against themselves.


we can be our own worst critics

[platformstrange]

Saturn can also mean one's middle finger,
http://www.zodiac3.netfirms.com/Palm%20reading/Palm%20read-slike/Image2.gif/

one or ten (digits)

i do believe he's is more likely to be "flippin' the bird" kids!

also... 2012?
The pressure of Saturn and Pluto will change the belief system of the world in a way that people finally realize that we have been on the wrong track for thousands of years. People and especially governments will finally realize that bringing peace and welfare to the world is a better thing to do then fighting wars, polluting the environment and creating misery.

but then again, do you believe in the easter bunny?

Flappy Grails...